Questions on Qana

By the way my vote in the "before" poll has gone missing. That's why there's one less vote for before than for after. Go figure. Or rather oooh, conspiracy ;-)

However much we may disagree, I really never think of you as an agent provocateur, Yaakov.

hello - I make it short - you maybe don't understand that in a war there is no such thing as civiliance - the entire country is attacked cause they are one part.

second, see how they aim to kill ceviliance in israel - but the IDF checks each target - what is wrong to do. IN a war it is very important to shoot and then ask the questions.

The war here is only one small part of the W W 3 that goes-on. They will not rest until the entire
western civilization is gone! Take it in mind.

All you, who read this - See the profits!!! and understand that the end is colser and closer.
Son of David is coming...

All regards to the good people that fight for the israel nation!

Have a good day:)

It's amazing to me that Israel, who is trying to fight this war as carefully as possible with these pricks, are getting slammed; while Hezbollah and Hamas, who purposely target CIVILIANS, are somehow off the hook in the world's eyes. I would not be surprised if Hezbollah had made sure something such as this would happen? The questions in this article are very worth considering.
Since when has it become socially acceptable for Israel to be terrorized? The people they are dealing with are crazy - crazy! People need to get that! People who are sitting comfortably at home, thousands of miles away, either just can't or won't sympathize with the Israeli's. Anti-semitism? Ignorance? Who knows. But the main issue here is that these fascists need to be stopped.
They are willing to put their women and children in the line of fire. How is that Israel's fault? And people fall for their tactics. It's amazing!

How right you are Melissa, just imagine the worlds (idiotic news reporters) response if Israel loaded its missiles with ball bearings? You got the answer right, Ignorance! plus misinformation on a scale never before seen here on this planet.
Through mass Ignorance the news sales are at there lowest ever figures, so to sell more, everything has to be more spectacular and who cares if what is printed or said is all fabrication, we are all Ignorant anyway

I don't see your problem re the IDF's claim about the timing of the its bombardment on the Ghaza beach. If it ended at 16:50 as the IDF said, and the injured people got to the hospital at 17:05 and 17:12, then where is the problem?

Melissa and Jerry, yeah you guys are so right, the use of cluster bombs and depleted uranium is much safer for the Lebanese.

What would have been safer for the Lebanese would have been to disarm Hizballah on their own. Functional states do not allow private armies to set their foreign policy. Any attempt to do so is an act of civil war.

Functional states

..Lebanon...are we talking about the same country..?

My point exactly. Everyone keeps whining that Lebanon is turning into a failed state, when that already happened. It was unable to supress a private army with its national forces and allowed that private army to declare war on a neighbor.

Guido Sohne "failed states" is not a label yet that I`d use.States that are in a state of failure,most differently,but there are glimmers of hope.....in Iraq anyway...Lebanon will never be a state of accomplishment until outside and inside forces stop their meddling..ie..Hezbula,Syria,Iran...and Israel stops feeling threatened....

Guido,

I don't mean to bud in, well yes I do :)

but it is perfectly fine for people who steal elections (twice!) to set foreign policy? It is fine for the President to be a criminal right (by violating and refusing to uphold the law, and instead redefining the law as he pleases)?

Just because the media says this, it is automatically a truth????
if you have irrefutable proof that your statement is true, please share with the class so I may become a believer too!

Fix your country, my friend. Get out of all the places you are in where you are not wanted and stop meddling in people's countries and ruining them in the process. What has that gotten you so far?

Trust me, I am not saying that America is perfect, there are a lot of things that I dislike and things that this administration and past administrations have done that I disagree with but the good things out weigh the bad. America is still the land of opportunity, there is more freedom here than anywhere else in the world. I can read whatever book I want, say whatever I want, believe whatever I want, practice whatever religion I want...not many other countries can boast that!

According to your view of America, it's really a wonder that illegal aliens keep pouring in!

You have more serious problems to worry about than far off countries who are not really a threat to you

Not a threat?
So I guess 9-11 was just a fluke and we have nothing more to worry about!

In two presidential terms, hundreds of years of tradition have been unseated for the ignorant to support the emergence of exactly what the US was founded to escape from.

come on tell the truth, you're just a liberal that hates President Bush, right? :)

gotta disagree with you!

and I am not in the mood to go looking around the net for facts that support my opinion.

we could be doing this all evening!

I will say that your credibility sank from your first point, or maybe you are just not informed enough to know that there were no Black People turned away from the polls, the news even reported that it was not true AND, actually, democrates were making up bogus names of imaginary people and people who had died, to add more votes in!?! that's how low the democratic party sank!

I find it interesting that dems and libs will follow their party no matter how wrong they are.

republicans on the other hand do criticise their party ---the news media is always quick to say that even President Bush's people don't agree with him!

And the democratic party is so hypocritical, I don't remember the exact wording but in one of hillary's shrill speeches, she was saying that everyone has a right to their opinion whether they agree with this administration or any other...sounds good right?

But now I heard that the lovely democratic party wants to have Joe Lieberman removed from running again??? because he agrees with Bush!!!! UNBELIEVABLE!!!!

I am so disappointed, I am realizing that people on the vine are the same as the people on the other boards, they run around in circles.

YOU SAID to Rob: The seamy underside of America that no one talks about. The massive percentage of the population in jail, the rampant crime and murder rates and shootings, the massive use of drugs, the deep seated racism. I think I know understand where the support for that comes from.

thats why I SAID: According to your view of America, it's really a wonder that illegal aliens keep pouring in!

and then YOU SAID: The aliens couldn't care less about the politics. They just want a better life.

HELLO???

you are not making sense, how can someone have a "better life" (your words) in a place of "The massive percentage of the population in jail, the rampant crime and murder rates and shootings, the massive use of drugs, the deep seated racism. I think I know understand where the support for that comes from." (your words to Rob)

and in conclusion, blaming all the woes of the world and the terrible (your thought) state that America is in on President Bush...is just silly.

Channie821:

The two of you are straying waaaay off-topic, but I'm intrigued by your tactic for arguing your position. I don't think I've ever heard anyone just come right out and say "I'm not in the mood to look for facts to back up my opinion." That's refreshing, to say the least. It certainly saves me from having to go through the effort of actually refuting your position, and allows me to simply say,"Wow! Your position is so wrong that it's hard to believe you've got neurons capable of supporting your bodily functions!"

The irony that you would accuse "democrats" of following their party no matter how wrong obviously escapes you, and doubtless I won't be able to apprise you of it. But thanks to your factless strategy, now I don't have to!

No doubt we're all getting smarter by this off-topic exchange, though.

good morning!

Yes, I was tired, you see I have a life with responsibilities and sometimes, especially when I am tired, I don't have the patience to find proof for specific things.

It's funny, how you berate me for telling the truth but if you had read the post that I was replying too, you may have noticed (you probably agree or don't care) that Guido was not giving proof of anything, just spewing out negative, abusive thoughts. But that doesn't bother you, huh?

It's always ok when people speak negatively about Israel, President Bush, America...but G-d forbid someone says something negative about the hezbala, moslems or democrates!

AND, thank you for pointing out that I am straying off topic.
Don't know where you live but I live in America and I can stray off topic (even though I don't think I was) anytime I choose! But thanks for your input! :)

It's funny, how you berate me for telling the truth but if you had read the post that I was replying too, you may have noticed (you probably agree or don't care) that Guido was not giving proof of anything, just spewing out negative, abusive thoughts. But that doesn't bother you, huh?

I'm sorry, I think I faulted you both for getting waaaay off-topic.

I was merely amused that you seemed to think simply stating that you're not going to bother looking up facts to support your positions sufficed as a defense of the warrantless assertions that you made.

Maybe there's a proper thread to rehash all of the 2000 and 2004 elections antics, but this thread sure didn't seem to be the place. Unless you think Newsvine should be all about whatever you want to talk about whenever and wherever you feel like talking about it. The rest of us make an effort to stay on the subject.

I live in America, too! We might even be neighbors! And I'd love to get into lots of fact-driven discussion about your negative perceptions of "democrates"-- I've spoken up many a time to defend the right of people to hold factually untrue positions, so why not yours which has the potential to be true?

I just think there are better places and ways to hold that discussion.

On the other hand, if you have more to say about Qana, I'm sure that there are plenty of folks who'd be willing to discuss that with you in this forum.

I saw video of "Mr. Green Helmet" quite a while ago. It showed him and another man in three or four scenes. In one of them they were just out in their tee shirts( the Hizbollah uniform") and than one put on his helmet and vest and they started rolling. In another, it showed the crew looking for a body in the building. They produced a little girl.. than the camera started rolling with MR. GH looking anguished and frantically yelling for help I suppose. After they were done filming, Mr. GH dropped the body like a bag of potatoes. Now regaurding Qana, were the figures of actual de4aths inlated and than reduced or were they not? Don't get me wrong, it is always a shame for children to be killed at any time.. but to exploit it is disgusting.

You raise good issues in most of your post, but since when is Lebanon "sovereign"? If it were sovereign, this war wouldn't have started. And about Israel's attitude towards the Palestinians, I think you missed the part of history beginning in the Oslo accord. It does seem that any withdrawal by Israel invites violence from the other side. This is what happened in the cases of Lebanon and Ghaza. Achieving peace is so much harder than you think.

IDF cyber warriors ;-)

I don't understand - how is anyone supporting Israel by deliberately invalidating a poll relevant to the current conflict? Are these people seriously advocating a systematic campaign of obfuscation in order to keep actual public opinion from coming to light?

That is the most underhanded idiotic @!$%#ing thing I've seen all week. Yaakov, you have to take down that poll - at this point, surely you must admit that the only purpose it is serving is as a misleading vehicle for propaganda.

Mike D,

You are setting up Newsvine's doom if you don't change this policy. Either make everything (votes/comments/polls) open to all or make them open only to those who are members of Newsvine.

So much for "Newsvine community".

Don't get overly worked up. These polls have absolutely no statistical validity whatsoever. Even when not co-opted by folks with an ideological axe to grind, they're essentially about as meaningful as tea leaves in the bottom of a cup.

For instance, I wonder what a poll of Lebanese refugees from the current fighting would show?

Rule number one: make sure the sample is representative of the population. (In Yaakov's poll's case, we know for a fact it isn't.)

You are jumping to conclusions here.

How many of those that voted without registering actually then went on to register?

The way I see it:

New unregistered poll participants = skewed polls = tons of useless poll-related discussion by Newsvine members = waste of time all around = disillusionment of some current members = reduction in their activity or complete abandonment = doom of Newsvine.

So 5 out of 800+ outsiders. How many do you think will still be around a year from now, contributing in meaningful ways to Newsvine?

You are entitled to your opinion as to who is being carried away. I can see things far into the future.

There are two possibilities:
Either Newsvine will rectify this situation. or
Newsvine will slowly fade away into just another also-ran.

I don't see any problem with this. It's not going to change my opinion if a million people vote on the poll, but on the other hand it sure is interesting to see what's going on.

Actually, I think the whole open poll thing is a really good idea. I would, however, make it more transparent by doing one of the following:

a) transparent voting - user, IP, etc. This way systematic violations can be ruled out
b) statistics on who is voting - so many from NV, so many outsiders, etc.

Also, another benefit is that it can push public to act and to cahnge opinion. That is, if

c) there are a lot of people who think A, then people who think B will have to react and say "But wait a second!"
d) if there are a lot of people who think A and very few who think B, the latter may re-evaluate their position.

Because of c) it would be good to turn on tracking for everyone who votes from the outside (require e-mail collection)

Sorry for the threadjack here but perhaps the polls could have as an option when created to allow or not allow unregistered voters? that choice could be displayed with the results so that those looking at the results would know how they were created.

Just a thought.

Not to use you as an example, Roger, but if you'd read the comments above you'd understand what happened.

Yaakov, still think it's a good idea to keep that sort of disinformation floating around? Obviously not everyone has the critical thinking skills required to understand the situation. You're really just acting as a proxy propagandist at this point, helping to skew poor Roger's worldview even further.

You are being too kind, Mykola. Face it, some people do not get smarter here or elsewhere. Who in their right minds would think that 800+ Newsviners voted on this poll? On the other hand, some people are deviously smart enough to use the not so smart people to further their propanganda.

This is a war. And unfortunately in a war people get killed. Do you think you're going to have a war where people don't get killed??

Yes, but this gets typed so often as though it is a defense.

It is the reason many people are against war. It is the reason many were against invading Iraq. etc.
Violence breeds violence.

No, they don't.

The Lebanese Red Cross currently reports that they've pulled 38 bodies from the rubble, with another 17 identified within. The ICRC report, contrary to what you imply doesn't claim what you says it does. To be specific, I'll quote their press release:

At the time of writing, the Lebanese Red Cross Society and the Lebanese Civil Defense have extracted 28 bodies from the rubble, 19 of whom are children.

In other words, at the time of this press release, the ICRC was reporting a running tally, not a final death toll, and the figures that they were using come from the same source that now claims 55 dead.

Well let me tell you how you can trust them, it's called investigation, see if you actually track the article you posted to the source , you'll see that it says "At the time of writing, the Lebanese Red Cross Society and the Lebanese Civil Defense have extracted 28 bodies from the rubble, 19 of whom are children.", note the "at the time of writing", also note the "Lebanese Red Cross", now if you look at some more links you'll see that the Lebanese Red Cross is now reporting 56 killed when those articles were written, I've seen elsewhere they're still pulling out bodies, last I heard it was up to 60. Granted this is the fault of Ynet news for this inaccurate reporting, but still you shouldn't just trust them immediately when there are so many other sources reporting the same numbers. It looks more like you're hunting for anything to believe.

But it is no problem to trust the Lebanese when theey are holding an investigation, because after all, "it's called investigation". Given the total numbers of victims of Israel's invasion, you think the Lebanese feel inflating the number of casualities in this incident by 20 or so is a good return on investment? Given the hundreds of thousands of displaced civilians, and the hundreds of civilians killed, you think they're highly motivated to pile on a few more numbers? You think the shame of having "only" killed 30 or so is markedly less than if the number were 50 or so? You think the Red Cross is another organization that is "out to get Israel"?

Maybe you're right... maybe there were only 25 or so killed, but they were all blown in half, and the Red Cross is counting each half as a whole person. Does that make it less horrifying for you?

Face it, you got called on your numbers game. You can spin it however you want to, but you were still wrong. You made a baseless assertion, whereas skepticism about IDF investigations are warranted, as suggested by other posts in this thread.

Deadish appeared to give a blanket dismissal of all Israeli investigations becasue they would inevitably biased given that "Israel has a history of lying to place the blame elsewhere", and then supported that.

and a blanket acceptance of Lebanese/Hizballah investigations...because..."it's called investigation". Point taken, although my immediate impression was that Deadish accepts the given numbers because they're presented by the Red Cross, and not because they're Lebanese. Your objection would hold more weight if the Lebanese Red Cross had a history of inflating the numbers of casualties they encounter. I don't believe I've ever run across that assertion.

The fact that the Lebanese investigation in question was over numbers makes no difference. Then you shouldn't have brought the numbers up as though they said something damning, when in fact they didn't. It would have been better to restrict your argument to questioning whether the Lebanese Red Cross can be considered neutral by point of fact of being Lebanese.

Pulling dead bodies out of a mass of rubble and counting is not called an investigation. Also the Lebanese red cross, who is reporting the numbers, consists of international volunteers as well. If Hezbollah were reporting the numbers I would be more willing to agree with you. No where did in the links I provided did it say Hezbollah provided these numbers. Not to mention that journalists did see the bodies and interview the survivors of the massacre. Now you're only twisting my words.

Just because Israeli investigations have a habit of vindicating Israel does not mean that they are completely fraudulent No, not completely. But the provable times that they've ignored evidence in order to present a result vindicating themselves mean that Israel's investigations are, at best, not reliable.

look at Sabra and Shatilla for example I think you and I have probably reached vastly different conclusions about what Sabra and Shatilla prove.

Agreed.

Better to destroy the launchers and rocket caches before they are put into position and used. You've said yourself on occasion that the launchers are mobile. Given that the rockets were fired from Qana, it would be reasonable to suppose that the launchers and rockets are stored nowhere near the location from which they're fired. Which renders the suggestion that Qana was a "legitimate" target a bit dubious, don't you think?

Israel has already tried to publicly distance itself from any civilian deaths by stating that it will consider anyone in the area a combatant, never mind the fact that the IDF has destroyed the majority of roads and bridges in the area, and fired on convoys of civilians fleeing the area, rendering it pragmatically impossible for the remaining civilians in the area to get away from the fighting.

It's hard to swallow, in the face of such events, the IDF claim that they're "doing everything they can" to avoid the deaths of innocent bystanders.

Guido, I think you have a serious problem making a distinction between the poster of an article and/or commentator and the IDF. As far as I'm aware, Yaakov is not a representative of the Israeli army, nor was he involved in any of their decisions.

Furthermore, I have seen you working very diligently on NV to make a point out of how Israel should be ashamed.... but I have yet to see you even acknowledge the other party. If one were to only read your comments, one would have to assume that Israel just decided to murder a number of Lebanese civilians for lack of anything better to do. If you're such a great humanitarian and proponent of peace, where is your condemnation of Hezbollah, which is not only inciting these deadly confrontations, but is completely disrespectful of the lives of the Lebanese civilians in the first place?

Yaakov: this also means that Hizballah's decision to fire rockets from areas with a high civilian density also means that they will most likely be stored in these very same areas.

So where are the parts of the launcher? Where are the dead Hezbollah fighters? Where are the remains of the rockets? First the IDF says they were firing on Hezbollah fighters that were launching rockets from that location, then they say "oops, sorry. There weren't any fighters there at the time" Now they say, "OK. We made a mistake, but Hezbollah does use civilians as human shields so you oughtta let us off the hook."

Maybe the IDF should start recognizing that they're creating more terrorists than they're destroying. You can't tell me that the million civilians whom they've displaced, and the hundreds of thousands who've had their property destroyed, and the thousands whose relatives have been killed are going to harbor neutral feelings toward Israel after this. Every bystander who suffers from this incursion is just another potential terrorist or terrorist supporter. This is just provocation for yet another recurring round of reprisals, and considering that Hezbollah will (however cynically) sweep in afterward to support these people, they are overwhelmingly more likely to see Israel as the problem than to blame Hezbollah for their trouble, no matter the logic of the situation or the words of apology offered by Israel to their pain.

It's the same lesson that the US has failed to learn in Iraq. Unless you're eliminating more terrorists than you're creating, you're simply making the situation worse.

Deadish, you obviously consider Fisk a reliable source. I beg to differ. Even in what he says in this short excerpt there are details that I remember different. I don't remember a claim that the firing came from inside the UN compound. Israel said from the start that it was from the area, and that the Hizbullah people then ran away into the compound. Israel did claim that it didn't have a drone there before the shelling, but it never admitted, by force or otherwise, that that wasn't true. The drone was sent to check after the fact, the UN soldier photographed it, and we only have his word that the pictures were taken before the shelling.

So you are saying that Israel deliberately killed those civilians, and also that it lied about it, so it is 1. murderous, 2. a liar (you get double points for shooting two birds with one stone), and of course 3. stupid, because that was the end of the operation. And I am saying - stupid and callous - yes, for having fired those shells, but as for 1 and 2 above, sorry, I'm not buying into that.

Seriously? You're asking a group who has deliberately skewed poll data to continue to participate here?

Roger, why are you here?

Am I the only one who finds this to be irrational and terribly irritating?

very irritating and counterproductive too (from his point of view)

My comment was more directed at Roger, who is getting irrationally excited at the idea of hundreds of people willing to skew poll data in order to show his preferred ideology to be "in the lead." He is the one urging these people to continue participating in this community, while I maintain that this goose-stepping cadre of rank-and-file information distorters has thus far demonstrated only a lack of critical thought and a blatant disregard for the entire notion of democracy or education. Thanks to them your polls are entirely worthless, and for some reason Roger sees this as cause for excitement.

Your call for a more active and discursive participation is a few steps ahead of Roger, so no, my comment was not directed at you.

It's not the participation that has me annoyed it's the ideological abuse. I don't understand who this helps.

I have submitted a bug report and suggested that they make registration a prerequisite for voting in polls. I am frankly aghast that such measures are required as I would think that people interested in news and politics would be mature enough not to intentional sabotage the flow of information. I can see what little remains of my idealism dripping from my soul into the vacuum of cyber-warfare.

Seriously though, maybe you can help me understand. If such a thing happened on one of my posts, I'd be really pissed off that my data was completely invalidated. Since you don't seem to share this outrage, I'm curious: do you see some value in what they are doing?

Because frankly, I honestly cannot see who it helps. It doesn't even help them, unless they honestly need ignorance to survive. So tell me, what's the benefit?

I can see what little remains of my idealism dripping from my soul into the vacuum of cyber-warfare.

I nominate this as a Newsvine Quote of the Month

he he ... I second the nomination

You still haven't answered my question, which was, who does this serve? I agree, it gives a great representation of your sample. If your sample is a bunch of hooligans, as yours seems to be, then how is that helping anyone? I mean, don't you see this as a clear example of abuse? All your poll is showing right now is that some radical Israeli Cyber Soldiers have been camping your post and voting as per their/your ideology. Now that they've got newsvine's scent, we can probably expect them to show up every time there's a poll regarding anything in the middle east. Even if you won't, Rob3000 probably will be forwarding them URLs. This seriously undermines any usefulness polls may have had.

So, again: what does this show? Who does this help? I'm sincerely curious, because this seems like a problem.

Mike - I guess I'd argue that a poll which takes the newsvine community as a sample is more useful than a poll which is wide open, and for these exact reasons. If you restrict it to members then when we look at poll data we know exactly what demographic we are talking about. If you leave it open like this, suddenly we know nothing about our sample and the whole thing loses its usefulness.

Mykola - The point of Newsvine isn't to be elitist (Beta stage is over ;-p) Anyone can register, regardless of their viewpoint, whether or not they are a "goose-stepping cadre of rank-and-file information distorters"

Although I think it is somewhat silly to have unregistered users be able to vote, I don't think it is horrible to invite visitors to Newsvine to register.

The fact that these facts and figures can be cited from the WHO's website does not automatically decide that 100% of the blame falls on Israel

Yaakov, don't misquote me. I never said it was 100% Israel's fault and I clearly said Hiz ios a major part of the problem ... as you know I always say. Don't be misleading please.

And Israel does not take free license to do anything or kill anyone. If Israel was really aiming to injure and kill as many civilians as possible, the injured/dead numbers on the Lebanese side would be astronomical by now

the fact that they show some restraint does not excuse their lack of restraint. they walk a careful tight-rope on what the USA will allow. At the momemt the USAseems happy to allow 800,000 displaced and a destroyed country.

, and when it is appropriate, apologizes and takes steps in order to prevent it from happening in the future. That is much more than I can say for their adversaries.

Apologizing is easy. Restraint and compassion hard.

The dead and homeless are not Hizbollah and are not their adversaries. Too many people take the evil of Hiz as the right to destroy a country.

You are right. Sorry for misquoting you. (Though it is not uncommon to read people blaming Israel for 100% of the problems in the region).

thx for response.

Yes, it is also not uncommon for people to blame Hizbollah for 100% of the problem - in lebanon.

I guess add those two things together and we understand why the mess exists.

sorry for repeat post thought it was lost as PC froze up. Darn cyber soldiers.

And lets be frank. The Israeli are far better able to cope at this point with the displaced -- but agreed, lots of suffering everywhere.

So what?

So what? well you were trying to equate the inncocent civilian suffering. The suffering of innocents is FAR worse in Lebanon. Israel and Hez have created a terrible crisis of human suffering. Israel is willing to continue with their attacks in part because their own citizens are suffering far less than in Lebanon.

Don't get me wrong, I'm against it all.

So what are you suggesting that Israel do when attacked? Sit tight? This is no way to stay alive in this neighborhood. It's only a way for inviting escalating attacks.

I have never seen anyone in the world lift a finger to help the situation between Israel and the Hizbollah. So I guess it is up to us, and half-way measures just will not do.

Newsvine was supposed to be for those who register with Newsvine. You don't need to register at CNN to vote. Neither do you need to register to comment. And no, he does not need to go and complain to CNN/etc just in order to appease your sense of "fair and balanced". Your argument is void.

Israel is known for NEVER intentionally targeting civilians. Israel actually goes out of it's way to warn civilians! What Israel is KNOWN for isn't necessarily what Israel does. For instance, who warned these 55 women and children that their building would be bombed? If what you're saying is true, why did Menachem Begin, Abba Eban, and Gen. Mordechai Gur go on record in the past regarding previous incursions into Lebanon with the studied opinion that Israel does, in fact target civilians, and for precisely the same reasons that terrorists do? [see the famous exchange between Begin and Eban in the Israeli press in August of 1981, or Gur's comments to Ha'aretz]. Israel attacks civilians and the civilian infrastructure to try to get civilians to press for a cessation of hostilities.

Israel's security position is no more tenuous than that of Taiwan [or a number of other countries, for that matter], yet we would certainly not excuse a Taiwanese invasion of neighboring countries along those lines.

The world is full of Jew/Israel haters and nothing the Jews do will ever be all right with these people. The world is also full of Israel apologists, and everything done by the extremists surrounding Israel will be viewed by these people as adequate excuse for anything Israel chooses to do in response. What's your point?

Just remember one thing if these Islamist Genocidists are able to get rid of Israel, do you honestly believe they will stop there??? They are the ones that say, "Death to the Infidel" that means everyone who is not a moslem! And by implication, all muslims are guilty. Nice. Stop your breathless hyperbole, already.

Do you also complain to CNN or any other far left media their polls? You should if you are truly fair and balanced because their polls are geared towards their supporters as well! That you can say this with a straight face disabuses me of any notion that you're rational. CNN, far left? The news organization that once housed a CIA disinformation desk aimed at subverting American opinion? Awesome. Yes, the Far Left run everything, don't they? [try substituting the term "Jews" for "Far Left", and see if this sort of statement is still as palatable to you. Beginning to see how sweeping generalizations can get totally out of hand?]

You've totally convinced me how reasonable your position is.

I'm sad that you think that this topic, the deaths of so many innocents and who is to blame, is amusing and not to be taken seriously.

I'm all for constructive debate as well, but while from your perspective there's an "unrelenting diet of anti-Israel propaganda", I feel there's a never ending supply of pro-Israeli propaganda. I haven't made a count of articles posted, as I really don't care all that much, overall I feel it's most likely around 50/50, if there's a lean in any one direction it's minor and most likely sways back and forth. But maybe you have made a study of this, I'm only being speculative.

What bothers me about this seeding isn't the references to IDF information, Yaakov has shown he thinks they're a reliable source (or at the very least he likes to present whatever they say), but the problem is that he linked to the random blog entry and presented that as evidence. Yes he made the claim that he couldn't find that anywhere else and that's exactly the point. There is no way this is a credible source and Yaakov should have known better than to present it.

If this is what Dennis was referring to then I apologize because I do agree the squabble over the poll is meaningless, I just ignored it myself.

As far as the blog post, the problem with presenting it is that you are displaying a bias that supports your theory, even though you post a disclaimer the intent is for people to see it. Regardless, people do see this, and it does effect their view. This is such an obviously bad source, and pure racist propaganda. It seems you're only posting it because you'd love it to be true (as a proof for your theory and your cause - not to say you wish this on children). I might as well find some blog from an Arab Israeli saying they've seen Israeli soldiers drink the blood of the civilians they kill, but then I can give a disclaimer saying it might be inaccurate. It is posts like this that make me question your integrity in seeking the truth and make me feel you are more interested in promoting your cause at any cost.

The indignation on the part of some of the commenters above is quite amusing. Taking it far too seriously!

hehe

Yep I dont know what is worse my indignation at civilian suffering or your (in many posts) smug and casual dismissal of this humanitarian crisis as jus an unfortunate fact of war and utterly justified by Israels right to degend itself.

Yep both amusing.

I'm not sure I follow your logic, Yaakov. A comment about Israeli soldiers drinking the blood of children is the most racist thing possible to say about Jews, but a claim that Hezbollah blew up a bunch of handicapped children as a PR move isn't remotely a racist thing to say about arabs? Your dehumanization of arabs doesn't strike me as vastly different from traditional dehumanization of Jews.

Must be a failure of your vision.

When did I ever equate Hizballah with all Arabs? When did Deadish equate IDF soldiers with all Jews?

I am talking about the tactics of this group... in the end of the day, the deaths of these children end up serving their cause. Well, you did a bit more than this, actually. Your article quite clearly is intended as an attempt to shift the blame from Israel to Hezbollah, and you're quite willing to do this by insinuating-- hell, outright declaring-- that there's a high likelihood that Hezbollah killed these folks. And then conclude that 1) not only is Israel always perceived to be guilty until proved innocent [by their own investigations, conveniently enough, although you avoid tackling this particular problem], but 2) that this indicates something about "the gullibility or biases of the world media and their audiences." And that latter statement is made as though your assertion (oh, I'm sorry... speculation) that Hezbollah directly killed these particular casualties should be given equal weight to acknowledgement that Israel bombed the living @!$%# out of them.

You can bracket that argument with limp attempts at neutrality ("I also cannot dismiss it outright from the realm of possible scenarios"), but the thrust of your article belies such disclaimers.

Allow me to ask you outright. What percentage of blame do you think Israel deserves for the million displaced Lebanese? What amount of blame for the 500-1000 dead Lebanese civilians? How much responsibility do you think Israel has for repairing Lebanon's civilian infrastructure, once they bail and leave an international "peacekeeping" force in place to buffer them against reprisals? And, as before, to the innocent victims and the hundreds of thousands of displaced bystanders, is Hezbollah's provocation more personally relevant than the fact that Israel has destroyed their homes, livelihoods or lives? Because those questions are a damn sight more relevant to the conflict and to questions about Israel's relative culpability than your baseless supposition that Hezbollah chained a bunch of handicapped kids in the basement of this building and then painted a big bullseye on it.