A Survivor of Palestinian Tyranny Defends Israel

Well, while this is an interesting viewpoint worth discussing, you should also remember that it is a minority viewpoint. Most Lebanese were justifiably angry at Israel for the Lebanon War.

Maybe but it is a fascinating insight into Lebanese culture and attitudes,and chimes with reports from others eg sidiwda.

You need to understand the culture and ideology of all parties before you can come up with a pat answer for resolution.

It ain't that easy.

Oh, I agree, her view is important. But it's only one side of the story. She says that Israel came to save the Christians in Lebanon. While Israel was the only party that wanted peace, it was also there specifically to root out the PLO, and was pretty indiscriminate in the damage it caused.

Most Lebanese were justifiably angry at Israel for the Lebanon War

They'd have done better to rage against the PLO for stirring up trouble with Israel when it wasn't Lebanon's fight.

Just like they should have disarmed Hizbullah or if unable on their should have asked for help, not invite them into the government and stand idly by while they took their turn to stir Israel up.

Could they not see where it was leading? Did they learn nothing from their previous episode?

Did they think Israel would be a pussy this time, or magically implode?

They were angry at the PLO. Now, for why they were angrier at Israel, that might be hard to sort out.

Using that ideology, should anyone bother backing any point they're trying to make with articles or links at all, then?

Give us some credit, Claus. I think it's fairly incredulous to compare the ravings of a [paid] lunatic on Jerry Springer against a heartfelt story of a personal experience.

Claus, are you saying her story is not generally representative of reality?

Claus, are you saying her story is not generally representative of reality?

Well, that's certainly what I'm saying. This is a ridiculous seed-- no offense, Yaakov, but that's how I feel. Look, you want me to find an example of a Jewish person saying all Jews are evil and sick and he only found true love and hope when he converted to Islam? I can. And I can find a Christian doing the same Uncle Tom show, and any other number of races and ethnicities. This is simplistic and silly and it doesn't even begin to address the reality of the situation. Which is, of course, that while the story of

"I would be lynched and thrown over to the grounds as shouts of joy of "Allahu Akbar" (God is Great) would echo through the hospital and the surrounding streets."

might be true for some people, it is probably not true for most. These are silly and pointless stories. I, too, can defend Israel, and somehow I manage to do so without debasing myself and my culture.

Also, the people responsible for most of the disgusting massacres of the Lebanese civil war were the (Christian) phalangists, so there is a bit of revisionism going on in this person's account as well.

Yaakov,

this is another example of your distraction seeds.

Do you think the 25% of the Lebanese population currently displaced will be writing such heart warming stories about Israel in the near future.

Shouldn't you be spending more time discussing if the Israel mass bombarding (my god have you seen some of the wideshot scenes of destruction ... looks like Berlin in '45.) are advancing the Israeli cause? Strategically or morally?

Did you here the CNN translation of some of the language in the fliers being dropped?

Israel has struggled to stop suicide bombers in 1 mile square refugee camps. Do they seriously think they can police a whole region. Is destroying Lebanon's economy and sentencing HUGE numbers to poverty, homelessness and probably refugee camps advancing your cause or making the job of Hezbollah recruiters easier?

Or are you seeding this stuff so no one remembers to b^notice what is going on today in gaza?

Israel has lost the moral high-ground. It is no longer good against evil but you against them. And those in between.

Claus,
Exactly. The west is so happy to hear an Arab bashing Arabs or Muslims; if one day I can't find a job in my field then I can start bashing Islam or Arabs, and I will suddenly become "an expert on the Middle East".

I grew up in the middle of civil war in Lebanon. I lived in the West side of Beirut and our neighborhood was a mixture of Muslims and Christians. On the other hand, all Muslims on the East side of Beirut were kicked out. So, I find it very hard to believe that the war started "when Muslims and Palestinians declared Jihad on Christians" (by the way, "declare Jihad on" is an expression that I only heard in the West).

My family always taught us that "we are all brothers" and we shouldn't let the ugly war separate us. I still remember my father crying - and it was the first time I see my father crying - after he met again his christian friend living on the East side. I remember Christian militias-phalangists- (not Christians in general) used to make check points on the roads. They will check your papers and if you have a Muslim name they will cut your throat. Of course, I'm sure a lot of atrocities were commited on both sides and none of them can be excused (not that there is any atrocity that can be excused).

I never needed to meet a Jew to know that Jews are not evil because I always believed that all humans are the same everywhere and you can never lump a whole group of people (whether sharing nationality, religion or "race") under one category.

I'm running out of time, so I will cut it short and add one more thing to Yaakov:
Please check with the settlers in Israel and go see the Graffiti, "Kill all Arabs" and other racist comments. Please go check how they attack children on their way to school, and then come back and talk about the "diet of racist hate"

I was rereading my comment and I want to make one more thing clear: the term West I used in the first sentence and in the sentence: "an expression that I only heard in the West", I used to refer to Europe and the US.

I never needed to meet a Jew to know that Jews are not evil because I always believed that all humans are the same everywhere and you can never lump a whole group of people (whether sharing nationality, religion or "race") under one category.

Exceedingly wise words, Zeina. Indeed, to believe otherwise is to embody bigotry and hatred. Don't lose track of that ideal as others have.

Hi Yaakov,

Do you think that this person was lying about their experiences growing up in Lebanon (which as you have pointed out is one of the more Liberal Arab countries)? And if they were telling the truth, do you think that this person's experiences are representive of a great many others that are not being told, or is this the exception.

I don't know that she is lying. But the story is extremely fishy. The Lebanese fought a brutal and disgusting civil war for 15 years, and this person was obviously on the side of the Phalangists. As such I wouldn't trust her claims of the "evil" of Islam. There are a good deal of liberal Christian and Muslim leaders in Lebanon who would take extreme offense to practically everything she is saying.

I do not think that it is a ridiculous seed because from what I have read, this case is not the exception. It may not happen everywhere, but it happens often enough that it is an issue of grave concern for people who, like ourselves, recognize that true peace in this region will only occur once both sides stop hating (and teaching hate in a systemic way to the young is a pretty good way of ensuring that it will continue).

Well, we can agree that the only way true peace will come to the region is when both sides stop hating and teaching hate. Those are good ideas. But surely you can see that she hates Muslims? She is not a voice for peace-- she is just another voice for blame, violence, and extremism. Just because she is an Arab doesn't mean she has special remit to spew idiotic garbage about her own people.

@Yaakov

These were adults that constantly attack children on their way to school.

In a research done in schools in Israel and Gaza, they asked children to draw an arab child and an Israeli child respectively and most children in Israel drew the arab child more like an animal (tail, or horn , ... etc). I wish I can find this article really quick ...

So, I'm sorry, as much as you want to believe that these are just "bored teenagers", a lot of material show they are not an exception, specially in the settlements.

chill888, lebanon has looked like berlin since 1972. The lebanese did that to it themselves

were you in a coma since 1972? or maybe you are just too ignorant and blind to see the difference between Lebanon during civil war and after the civil war?

lebanon has looked like berlin since 1972

sidiwda, that you would make a statement like that indicates your absolute lack of awareness of reality. Lebanon (was) almost completely rebuilt in the last five years-- everything was beautiful and brand new, before this new destruction began. I was just there and if you'd like I can post some pictures for you-- although I imagine you could easily find them yourself if you looked hard enough.

Jimmy,

Actually, Yaakov's "program" is to spread the truth, unlike people like you who like to spread lies and propaganda about Israel.

I have only just met Yaakov here on the vine but I am confident in saying that he and I and others on the vine that support Israel, do not believe that all Arabs are evil.

Our belief and past and current events (whether you want to believe it or not) show that we are under attack from moslem extremists that want to rid the world FIRST of every Jew and then the rest of the world that do not believe in Islam.

It is really very simple, you and others that are against Israel make it very complicated with your intricate lies and word twisting!

Oh, the lovely Jimmy Havok. You know, I really am starting to wonder how someone gets to be as full of hate as you. I think you should write an autobiographical article about it. Because at this point you are so radically full of hate as to preclude any sort of constructive discussion.

Yaakov, I'm sorry I misremembered your county of origin.

Channie, Yaakov constantly posts articles like this one, that portray Arabs as subhuman and vicious. He lives on a settlement stolen from Arabs and supports a government that killls Arabs every day. He needs to lie every day in order to face himself.

Nikitab, I'm not filled with hate, I'm filled with disgust at your ceaseless lying.

Here is Israel.

That article wouldn't have been written by an abolitionist. It would have been written by a slaveowner about the abolitionists.

fascisto,
Palestinians are encountering Israelis every day.

PS
I'm happy you found a soul mate (phalangists are very cute)

Zeina, I see that you have learned the slurs. I think you Muslims have the Phalangists on your termination list right after the Jews don't you?

The termination list is only in your mind fascisto.

I see why you like Phalangists:
They massacred 2000 unarmed palestinians (most of them are women, children and elderly) in Sabra and Shatilla. But they are all evil muslims, so they deserve it.
And the party was formed in 1939 after their leader was inspired by the fascist and nazi movements in Europe. So they are fascists like you, yay!

PS
I'm not a Muslim, I'm atheist (it's even worse I guess)

Learned the slurs

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can spot the hypocrisy in this statement being penned by a supporter.

Isn't she great

Of someone who uses slurs like

visualize a tapestry of snakes.

to, less than clinically, forward their viewpoint.
Not that it's important but given you and this individual have met, given this individual is earning some serious payola from what could kindly be called leading reality management specialists and given that you seem to be in complete concord with her views, the unavoidable conclusion to anyone with an eye on your possible motivation and your profiles synchronicity with current events, is that you are either auditioning or working.
Obviously keep doing what your doing, you are undeniably an extremist and a minority in your, 'its their fault, they started it, Islam is the root of this conflict not injustice and inhumanity between nations perspective.
I've nothing obviously against your freedom to proclaim your opinions.
But as an observer I have to question whether your perspective, so easily revealed as selective, hypocritical and unwaveringly narrow is effective at anything more than adding minor weight to one end of a bell curve to incrementally move its mass in a certain direction. And possibly identifying contra arguments for further tactical debate studies.
Because the position that likeminded individuals exist in this case seems only to further isolate you from any humane solution to the present middle eastern conflict and in fact only perpetuates the status quo as it stands.
I can see how that might be useful to a minority.

Winsome,

I think you are being unjust: you are using the fact that Sidiwda's understanding and position resonates with that of the speaker and thus Sidiwda is somehow a political manipulator. I've met plenty of people who prause Noam Chomsky, but it never even crossed my mind that they might be agents of the left.

Sidiwda does indeed have a very strong position and a very strong belief here, but rather than attacking her personally, I think that as an observer it may be far more productive to attack/enlighten using specific information. Did the Brigitte say something that is false? Did she omit something? Is there any reason to question her credibility aside from the fact that her political position is different from yours?

BTW, check out some of my latest articles - I am trying to bring about a constructive debate... although with questionable success... :\

Nikitab, your civility embarrasses me. :)
I take note of your point that i fail to enlighten by bringing specific new information to the table.
Pointing out the glaring hypocrisy in my first point was, on reflection, my only point.
I questioned the credibility of anyone whose hypocrisy is so self evident.
Again that was my point. I need no new input to make it.
What followed was perhaps needless elaboration. I am trying to attribute motivation for such logically contradicting statements for and against slur in the context of political debate.
It defies logic to suggest that my criticism is invalid because it contains no original source material.

I may be mistaken because I'm assuming you recogise Noam Chomsky as an 'agent of the left'. If correct and I actually met with him, shared his views and promoted his work and ideas then i'd have no difficulty recognising that to different degrees, we were both agents of the left.

I don't think Noam Chomsky is an agent of the left. I am actually not even sure if he believes the stuff he peaches. He is a brillian linguist and, after seeing Manufacturing Consent, it seems to me that a man as smart as him would unlikely leave such gaping holes in his argument. What I do think is that he believes that a dormant democracy is a dead democracy and he is trying to shock it into action by going overboard to the left. That's just my perception though.

Slurs comment - eh, I think that given that the attack (calling fascisto) was completely inappropriate. Sidiwda does have a point that there is a disconnect between Israelis and Arabs. Zeina has a point that this is not true across the board. The manner in which this was expressed by Zeina, while she has a point, I think was a bit inappropriate. However, she feels very strong about her statement, so it can be understood. But then again, when you are attacked, response in kind can also be understood.

The only thing I'd like to point out is that before chastizing anybody, we should be able to understand the opposing side and, if we want to have a constructive conversation, there is a way to do that.

Though you can rightly call me a hypocrite - I've blown up plenty of times on NV: Rhine Cyrus had a special knack for getting the rise out of me. :)

What the Israeli propaganda machine has to say about Arab Christians

How the IDF treated a Lebanese Christian church

First link: Not Arab Christians, but Palestinian Christians - stop lying.

Second link: beautiful first half that speaks of the goodness of some people in the Israeli army. Second half simply seems like a fairly harmless juvenile, though inappropriate, behavior. Though hardly anything to engage in terrorism over.

Oh yes there is. Just look at Keld. On the other hand, Chill, I haven't seen you calling Keld's seeds a distraction even though most of them have far less credibility than this woman.

You think that I do not consider myself to be fortunate, blessed and "lucky" to be living in the Land of Israel?

;-) good answer. Glad to hear it

It appears that mentioning the people who paid for Yaakov's blessings isn't appreciated.

I have from time to time raised the fact that the Qu'ran echoes the Torah when it comes to the Jews and the promised land. I expected some of the moslems on this site to come to the rescue with an explanation of how arabs have overridden this and now claim the whole middle east for themselves, but no-one ever has.

I would still appreciate someone helping us all to understand the Islamic religious basis for denying the Jewish right to the land of Israel.

No takers?

I'll bite. Actually, you are both right. The Qu'ran has an explicit recognition of the people of Israel as the "chosen people," and there is a lot of respect shown to Jews specifically and monotheists generally in the Qur'an. There are also some violent passages but these are easily explained and I won't get distracted by them here. I suggest taking a look at the following, by Sheikh Abdul Hadi Palazzi, for more on this topic: http://www.templemount.org/quranland.html.

So you rightly ask why the opposition to Israel from Muslims? I think this should clearly demonstrate that what we are dealing with here is a political dispute, not a religious one. Remember that the founders of the PLO and all of the people who fought for Palestine for so long were secular. The religious element has only been injected in the last two decades with the ascendance of "political" Islam everywhere. There are Israelis and Arabs who are interested in portraying this as a "holy" war-- but it is, simply, a dispute about political rights. And when the political solution that bloody everyone knows is required is finally implemented, I think we will see the religious element of this dispute start to disappear.

This is progess.

I agree with you 100% that there are separate political and religious dimensions to the whole issue and sometimes feel they get confused deliberately.

Your link doesn't seem to work, but can you comment on views I've read elsewhere that the middle east has been declared Arab land by moslem religious leaders (I think this may have happened a lot more than 2 decades ago)?

I'm genuinely interested because this does not seem to be well explained.

Is it true? If so what was the religious basis? How is this reconciled with the point you made above about recognition of Israel in the Qu'ran?

The reason I'm asking is that I would like a better understanding of where the ideology of say Hamas is rooted.

Everybody, let's not start quoting the Koran here so loosely. Let me explain. Two things you must understand are the concepts of 'Nasekh' and the concept of 'Taqiya' to understand why Muslims seem to act in contradictory ways.
Islam had two phases, the Mecca phase and the Medina phase. In Mecca Islam was weak. The Muslims had no weapons or army. Muhammad used the concept of Taqiya which meant it is ok to lie or even deny Islam if it meant saving Islam. He was also trying, like any salesman, to get as many allies as possible. So all the 'revelations' were about Christ and the Jews. He was trying to get asylum and military help from the Coptic king of Ethiopia and also money and military aid from the Jews in Medina. The first gave him asylum only while the Jews and the Christians who ruled Medina offered him sanctuary and military aid. The love to Jews and Christians was flowing in the Koran at that point.
That didn't continue for long. The concept if Nasekh means that old revelations can be displaced in authority by new 'revelations'. The Koran is not a serial book. Meaning that when you read it it doesn't go from the old revelations to the new. The book is split into Mecca Koran and Medina Koran. But even each book within the Medina for example isn't serial. Some old Medina stuff can precede the new Medina stuff. That is the way it was collected. So the Koran just quoted above was Nasekh-ed , cancelled, if I may say, by new revelations that denounce Jews and Christians. I will try and put together a Koran tutorial for all of you and post it this weekend. dennis, I referred in my own articles to quotes from the Koran about the roots of the hatred and HAMAS ideology. Look at the Celestina@Newsvine article for reference.

That would be very helpful. Thank you.

The Egyptian's link had an extra period on the end, here's a working link.

Cheers, Deadish.

I've really tried to avoid engaging with sidiwda due to the obvious hatred that flows from his/her lips. I considered writing a response to the pile of garbage that is the post entitled "Celestina@Newsvine", but then I decided it would be pointless to debate a person who is so completely set on maligning a religion practiced by over a billion people. Allow me to say on behalf of myself and all of the Muslims I have ever met in my life that your entire account is a crock of @!$%#. I really enjoyed reading your psuedo-history but it is false, false, false. In Islamic law and interpretation, there is no concept called "Nasekh"-- despite your employment of the Arabic word for "erase."

I'm really looking forward to your Qur'an tutorial. Maybe, after you've finished, we can ask the good people of Hamas to put together a Torah tutorial. Equally useful and scholarly, I'm quite sure.

By the way, I got distracted by the sheer amount of bile that sidiwda's post generated in my body. Dennis, to answer your question, several Muslim leaders did in fact declare the land to be Arab/Muslim holy land-- you can chalk this up to the Hajj Amin al-Husseini (and his followers), a fascist/nazi who enjoyed a lot of power in Palestine after Zionists started arriving. But remember that Islam has no organized church (like Judaism) so the pronouncements of one or two or even a hundred "scholars" has no bearing on these kinds of issues. The link that deadish so nicely corrected above contains a lot of quotes from non-crazy Muslims, like King Faysal of Iraq, who said "The Arabs, and particularly the educated ones among them, must look at the Zionist movement with the deepest sympathy."

Hope that helps.

I would like a better understanding of where the ideology of say Hamas is rooted.

This is slightly off topic, but it bears mentioning that the Islamic aspect of Palestinian efforts toward independence was most likely encouraged as a means of countering the secular politics of the PLO. It's the oldest trick in the book; Divide and Conquer.

From this source, among others,

In a conscious effort to undermine the Palestine Liberation Organization and the leadership of Yasser Arafat, in 1978 the government of then-Prime Minister Menachem Begin approved the application of Sheik Ahmad Yassin to start a "humanitarian" organization known as the Islamic Association, or Mujama. The roots of this Islamist group were in the fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood, and this was the seed that eventually grew into Hamas – but not before it was amply fertilized and nurtured with Israeli funding and political support.

Then they should sign up to American and Israeli media outlets immediately as middle eastern consultants, the commissions or finders fees would be a healthy wage in itself. The more writhing snake metaphor makers who can succinctly explain why Islam is the root of all evil the better. With logic carrying the day and the world convinced it would simply them be a matter of either crucifying a billion people ( I have copywrite on that you reality show people) or perhaps more kindly merely sterilising them. You obviously couldn't gas them the irony would put off the advertisers.

Winsomecowboy, may be I missed it, but where did the Brigitte suggest that Islam is the root of all evil?

The difference between the Arabic world and Israel is a difference in values and character. It's barbarism versus civilization. It's dictatorship versus democracy. It's evil versus goodness.

and

America and the West are doomed to failure in this war unless they stand up and identify the real enemy. Islam.

And...

If you want to understand the nature of the enemy we face, visualize a tapestry of snakes. They slither and they hiss, and they would eat each other alive, but they will unite in a hideous mass to achieve their common goal of imposing Islam on the world. This is the ugly face of the enemy we are fighting.

She goes on to say that:

An Islam that is awakening from centuries of slumber to re-ignite its wrath against the infidel and dominate the world. An Islam which has declared "Intifada" on the West.

Does she not mean radical Islam that has perpetrated attacks accross the world? Surely, I don't think she means that it's Islam the way it is practiced by moderate Muslims in the US. Or do you think she does?

.

We are fighting a powerful ideology that is capable of altering basic human instincts. An ideology that can turn a mother into a launching pad of death.

Even the Nazis did not turn their own children into human bombs, and then rejoice at their deaths as well the deaths of their victims. This intentional, indiscriminate and wholesale murder of innocent American citizens is justified and glorified in the name of Islam.

..represent a canvas of hate decorated by different nationalities who share one common ideology of hate, bigotry and intolerance derived from one source: authentic Islam.

Just in case there's any doubt left although I feel I'm labouring the point a little.

You hear about Wahabbi and Salafi Islam as the only extreme form of Islam. All the other Muslims are wonderful moderates. I hope the pictures of the irrational eruption of violence from around the world in reaction to the cartoons of Mohammed from burning embassies, to calls to butcher those who mock Islam, or to warnings to be prepared for the real holocaust, has given you a glimpse into the real face of the enemy.

winsome, what do you disagree with in the last quote?

The previous quote, I don't know enough to defend her, but I seriously doubt she would defend any sort of aggression against peaceful muslim communities in the US.

Nikitab: Good job finding those invisible words! I had completely missed them.

Thanks Jimmy. It's not the first time you default to thinking someone operates on hate without due reason.

It's funny how you can find those invisible words, and miss the visible ones, niki. I guess it all depends on what you want to see.