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YAAKOV

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Ponderings and Links on Israel and Jewish Issues and Technology
Articles Posted: 72  Links Seeded: 601
Member Since: 1/2006  Last Seen: 12/04/2011

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Relative Statistics Regarding Muslim Deaths

Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:28 AM EDT
world-news, israel, murder, muslim, anti-semitism, genocide, arab, darfur
By Yaakov

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VoteTotal Votes: 97

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On September 23rd, an article was published in the Israeli newspaper Maariv. The original, entitled And the World was Silent (hebrew) is here. It was translated into English by a blogger named Imshin (intro, page 1, page 2, page 3).

Here is a quote from the first page of the article, giving a synopsis of the general point being made by the author, Ben Dror Yemini:

Under an academic and/or journalistic umbrella, today's Israel is compared to the damned Germany of yesteryear. In conclusion, there are those who call to terminate the 'Zionist project'. And in more simple words: because Israel is a country that perpetrates so many war crimes and engages in ethnic cleansing and genocide – it has no right to exist. This, for instance, is the essence of an article by the Norwegian writer Jostein Gaarder (writer of "Sophie's world"), who wrote, among other things: "We call killers of children by their name"). The conclusion is that Israel has no right to exist.

The tragedy is that in Arab and Muslim countries a massacre is happening. A genocide protected by the silence of the world. A genocide protected by a deception that is perhaps unparalleled in the history of mankind. A genocide that has no connection to Israel, to Zionism or to Jews. A genocide of mainly Arabs and Muslims, by Arabs and Muslims.

This is not a matter of opinion or viewpoint. This is the result of factual examination, as precise as possible, of the numbers of victims of various wars and conflicts that have taken place since the establishment of the State of Israel up till this time, in which the massacre continues. It is, indeed, death on a massive scale. A massacre. It is the wiping out of villages and cities and whole populations. And the world is silent. The Muslims are indeed abandoned. They are murdered and the world is silent. And if it bothers to open its mouth, it doesn't complain about the murderers. It doesn't complain about the perpetrators of these crimes against humanity. It complains about Israel.

Blogger Chayyei Sarah has gone through the article and printed a summary of the various statistics here. Here are her words:

The next time Arabs and/or Muslims complain about the persecution they suffer at the hands of the Americans and Israelis, remember this . . .Since 1948, the number of Muslims killed by the Americans and Israelis combined is still less than the number killed by the French. And the number of Muslims killed by the French, Israelis, and Americans combined is still less than the number killed by the Soviets/Russians. And the number of Muslims killed by the Soviets, Russians, French, Israelis, and Americans, combined, is still about 1/3 of the number of Muslims who have been killed by Muslim states.

I don't mean to minimize anyone's suffering, and as an Israeli I'm interested in continuing to pressure Israel to keep Arab casualties at a minimum while still protecting Israelis. But if the goal is to save lives, then to focus one's pressure on the deeds or misdeeds of Israel is to apply an incredible, ridiculous double standard, one clearly motivated by anti-Semitism and nothing more. If the goal is to spare Muslim lives, then the Muslims could start with themselves, and come back to us when they value each other. (Oh, and when they themselves don't think anymore that 1,000 of them is worth 2 of us.)

I don't have so much to add to the commentaries cited above. (Just to note that the statistic of 60,000 Arab deaths in the Arab-Israel conflicts since 1948 were almost entirely as a result of wars started by the Arab countries in which they sought to destroy Israel). Although the matter is disturbing, it is not also very surprising, given the agenda of the Arab world (as well as most of the UN) for the past half century regarding Israel. I am interested in seeing what (if any is possible) cogent response can be given to this by those who spend their days calling Israel dirty names all in the name justice. If you are so interested in saving (Arab) lives (as opposed to destroying Jewish countries), given the statistics cited above, what is your defense?

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  • Public Discussion (21)
crazytrain

Yaakov,

Thank you for seeding this article. I needed some good math to talk sense into some of my fellow Muslims. This Ramadan, I pray for lasting peace in Middle East. I hope you do the same during the day of atonement.

  • 16 votes
Reply#1 - Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:06 AM EDT
jnearen

A Muslim thanking a Jew. Now that's cool! Thanks to both of you.

Great post Yaakov.

  • 11 votes
Reply#2 - Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:56 AM EDT
Nata

Yaakov, as usual... wonderful point. I've really been surprised at how little attention this very issue has gotten. Save for maybe Ammar's insightful columns, there's hardly been any mention of it, and it's a damn shame. I am not absolving any outside influences of having contributed to the problem, but blaming everything on America and Israel is completely ignoring the history, the facts about what these people have been put through, and in essence - the heart of the matter itself.

  • 5 votes
Reply#3 - Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:05 PM EDT
Nata

Erp. That link was meant to show up as Ammar's column.

  • 1 vote
#3.1 - Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:07 PM EDT
Reply
Monty Pogoda

Why don't you send this article to that Norwegian anti-semite and tell him ,from me,to go to hell

  • 2 votes
Reply#4 - Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:42 AM EDT
uli

I find this article stupid and irrelevant. Would the Jews want me as a German to compare Hitler and the Holocaust to Stalin or the Turkish genocide against the Armenians, thus belittleling the crime? How stupid is that? All those historical events stand for themselves and we should learn from each one.
As for Israel, it is committing a crime and humanitarian desaster with its occupation in the West Bank and now with its stupid unilateral moves. Get back to the borders of 1967, allow the creation of a viable Palestinian state in coordination with the Palestinians. Once this is done, there is base for further discussion.
One does not need to be an anti-Zionist in order to see this clearly, unless Zionism means for you Jewish territorry from the Sea to Jordan.
Israel does not have to engage in scrutinizing internal Arab politics or the politics/wars between the Arab states in order to legitimise its own actions. Israel should concentrate on its own activities. There you can see how time and again the government with its costly military aggressions manages to destroy its own society where budgets are cut left, right and center, where social gaps are getting bigger and bigger, where the air you breathe is filthy and where open spaces and nature are scarce. Those are the real problems. What is Israel fighting for in the end, a piece of desert with 15 Mio people in it?

  • 3 votes
Reply#5 - Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:57 AM EDT
Yaakov

I find this article stupid and irrelevant. Would the Jews want me as a German to compare Hitler and the Holocaust to Stalin or the Turkish genocide against the Armenians, thus belittleling the crime? How stupid is that? All those historical events stand for themselves and we should learn from each one.

uli - If there was a historical event where Jews have killed tens of millions of Jews (magnitudes greater than those killed by the Germans), then you might have a point. However, given the historical record (where by and large, Jews were always the ones persecuted and killed), your comparison has no validity. The article cited above is calling out the Arab countries for crying about Israel, when comparatively they are guilty of the same crime that they are accusing Israel of, many many times over.

As for Israel, it is committing a crime and humanitarian desaster with its occupation in the West Bank and now with its stupid unilateral moves. Get back to the borders of 1967, allow the creation of a viable Palestinian state in coordination with the Palestinians. Once this is done, there is base for further discussion.

So you really think that if Israel just left all of the West Bank, and "created a viable Palestinian state in coordination with the Palestinians" (what do you think they have been trying to do...who elected Hamas?), that there would then be peace?

What crime is Israel committing? I am familiar with the rhetoric. Give me specifics. And why aren't you upset about the "crimes" committed by the neighboring Arab states after 1948, when they kicked out hundreds of thousands of Jews? Or is that different?

What is Israel fighting for in the end, a piece of desert with 15 Mio people in it?

15 Mio people? I am not familiar with that number. And I can see from your perception of Israel as just "a piece of dessert" that you have absolutely no familiarity with the actual land, or the connections of either Arabs or Jews to it. So please, go mind your own business.

  • 7 votes
#5.1 - Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:09 AM EDT
JesseK

Amen.

  • 2 votes
#5.2 - Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:21 PM EDT
crazytrain

Uli,

Bottom line is elements within the Israeli government (such as MOSSAD) have done things that are widely criticised today by even former officers of the said elements (see Victor Ostrovsky). However, most of the actions taken by the people of Israel were done in the name of self-preservation. Imagine a country that is surrounded almost entirely by its enemies that have vowed to see the end of the State of Israel (see Yom Kippur War). What I think Yaakov is trying to illustrate is that many of the hostile Arab countries have governments that deprive their citizens of their basic human rights (including the right to life) while portraying Israel as enemy number 1 to distract their citizens.

  • 4 votes
#5.3 - Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:14 PM EDT
tal6620

Hostile Arab countries have governments that deprive their citizens of their basic human rights (including the right to life) while portraying Israel as enemy number 1 to distract their citizens.
I think you got it.

  • 3 votes
#5.4 - Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:59 PM EDT
Reply
flymeoutofhere

Thanks Yaakov - Another GREAT seed.

  • 3 votes
Reply#6 - Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:35 PM EDT
tal6620

Beautiful work Yaakov.
Gmar chatima tova, Tzom Kal (hope you can read Hebrew/English)

Jimmy get over here and comment on this article!

  • 3 votes
Reply#7 - Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:50 PM EDT
flymeoutofhere

Jimmy get over here and comment on this article!

LOL Never any comments when no lies can be told. This evidence is firm, you can't expect him.

  • 2 votes
#7.1 - Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:13 PM EDT
Reply
jazzfan

Do you really think that if Israel pulled back to its '67 borders, that the radical Muslims will be satisfied? Their goal is a Muslim state, from the river to the ocean. Their goal is the elimination of Israel as a nation, and as a people.

    Reply#8 - Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:43 PM EDT
    Carol Yost

    I think this article is dishonest. It's an attempt to make Israel's unjust treatment of the Palestinians and Lebanese look unimportant because other people, the article says, are even worse. OK--you rob 10 banks. I rob five. Look, I'm better than you.--No, we're both wrong. The article doesn't admit that Israel has committed atrocities. It's a filthy attempt to evade the truth.

    Whatever injustices have previously not been reported should be reported. It doesn't matter who is guilty of them. But if I kill one person I have to go on trial and go to jail for it, don't I? There hasn't been honesty about Israel or the US support of whatever Israel does. And the situation of the Palestinians is desperate because of the deliberate, day-to-day torture, murder, harassment, humiliation carried out by the Israeli government against them. They do not deserve this. If they try to oppose it, even by peaceful means (and the peaceful protests are NOT usually reported--just the suicide bombings, etc.), they are treated even worse. I will never excuse suicide bombings, but the Palestinians' situation is indeed desperate.

    The bombing of Lebanon, in addition, especially because of the cluster bombs, was horrible and inexcusable. It may be years before Lebanon can recover.

    The Jews of all people, having endured the horror of the Holocaust, should have sworn never to let anybody else be treated like that. They should have vowed, "Never again!"

    • 1 vote
    Reply#9 - Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:45 PM EDT
    Yaakov

    The article doesn't admit that Israel has committed atrocities. It's a filthy attempt to evade the truth.

    Whether or not Israel has committed attrocities is not the subject of this article. The subject is (to quote crazytrain above): that many of the hostile Arab countries have governments that deprive their citizens of their basic human rights (including the right to life) while portraying Israel as enemy number 1 to distract their citizens.. The world by and large supports the Arab countries in their quest as portraying Israel as public enemy number one, while completely ignoring attrocities and murder committed by these very same Arab states against their own people.

    The hypocrites.

    But if I kill one person I have to go on trial and go to jail for it, don't I?

    The article above cites the statistic of 60,000 Arabs killed in wars with Israel, and compares it with other numbers from Arab, Communist and other different regimes. I admit, it is slightly dishonest. The number 60,000 is not really a good number to use, since the vast vast majority of these people were killed as part of wars started by Arab countries with the goal of destroying Israel. So I would not say that Israel is so responsible for their deaths, that occurred because of the ineptness of their own leaders and the weakness of their own military strategies.

    And the situation of the Palestinians is desperate because of the deliberate, day-to-day torture, murder, harassment, humiliation carried out by the Israeli government against them.

    I would posit that the Israeli government needs to do what it does because of the terror attacks and threats to Israeli citizens and land by Palestinian groups (first and foremost Hamas and the PLO).

    Can you please give us some sources for your claim of "day-to-day torture and murder" committed by the Israeli government against the Palestinian populace at large?

    The bombing of Lebanon, in addition, especially because of the cluster bombs, was horrible and inexcusable. It may be years before Lebanon can recover.

    Was the bombing of Northern Israel excusable?

    The Jews of all people, having endured the horror of the Holocaust, should have sworn never to let anybody else be treated like that. They should have vowed, "Never again!"

    Exactly. That is the point. "Never Again" does not mean: if someone is trying to kill us Jews, we will not respond to their attacks, if in responding we may harm the civilian population. Far from it. "Never Again" means: we will never let some other foregin entity come to us, the Jewish people, and attempt to destroy us. And if they try, we will blow them away. The Arab states have been trying for to do this for 60 years. And they still haven't gotten the message. And neither have you, apparently.

    • 5 votes
    #9.1 - Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:52 AM EDT
    Reply
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