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YAAKOV

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Articles Posted: 72  Links Seeded: 601
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International Ignorance of Hamas

Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:37 AM EDT
world-news, israel, middle-east, russia, gaza, hamas, palestinians, peace, fatah, plo, quartet
By Yaakov

Live Poll

Theoretically, would Hamas' recognition of Israel's right to exist even matter?

View Results
  • 4894
    Yes
    32%
  • 4895
    No
    68%
  • 4896
    Kind of...
    0%

VoteTotal Votes: 28

Live Poll

Will Hamas ever really "recognize Israel's right to exist"?

View Results
  • 4955
    Yes
    9%
  • 4956
    No
    77%
  • 4957
    Kind of...
    14%

VoteTotal Votes: 22

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Haaretz just published an article with the headline: Russian FM calls international demands on Hamas 'unrealistic'. From the article:

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said Friday that international demands for Hamas to immediately renounce violence and recognize Israel were unrealistic at present, and that the Palestinian movement should be given more time to honor them.

And how much time would be reasonable? 1 year? 2 years? A century? Why exactly is it unreasonable to expect Hamas to "recognize Israel"? Perhaps because they are incapable of such, and never intend to.

Meanwhile, Palestinian Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar of Hamas told demonstrators in Gaza on Friday that Israel is an abomination in the Middle East that will some day disappear.

So what is Russia worried about?

Lavrov added that the ruling Palestinian movement could "move gradually toward accepting these conditions."

He criticized unidentified members of the quartet of "trying to influence this process by making excessive demands, excessive at the present stage."

What amazes me is that the "Quartet" and every other international power that is putting pressure on Israel to accept and give in to Hamas and the PLO, are intimating that given more time, Hamas will really go and make extremely large and generous concessions like recognizing that the State of Israel deserves more than extermination.

Are they really that stupid and ignorant. Is there some alternate fantasy world where they are living, in which one is allowed to stick one's head in the ground and selectively pay attention to only the things that adhere to one's own personal agenda? Or do they really know what is going on, and just want to give off the impression of ignorance? While the Quarter continues speaking about how Hamas just needs a little bit more time, and eventually they will come around to recognizing Israel (which will still have gotten us absolutely no where), Hamas is making no effort to conceal their true intentions (other than speaking in Arabic). Here is what they have to say:

Speaking at a rally in the southern Gaza town of Khan Younis, the Palestinian foreign minister said Hamas would never accept Israel's existence.

"We will never recognize Israel, and the end the [fate of] Zionists will be like that of the Crusaders, the Persians and the English, who left. We want all of Palestine, every centimeter, from the river to the sea, from Rosh Hanikra to Rafah. If we can form a state within the 1967 borders we will do so, but this doesn't mean that we will relinquish our right to every centimeter of Palestine's land," he said.

In his speech, Zahar also addressed the Palestinian prisoners in Israel and promised them that Hamas will do all that it can to secure their release, including kidnapping more Israeli soldiers.

While the rest of the world is waiting for Hamas (and Iran), I sincerely hope that Israel can produce some real leaders who are capable of actually acting in the best interests of Israel. Not in the best interests of public relations, or doing things that will allow the Prime Minister to avoid indictment or get an invitation to Oslo or Washington DC. The best interests of Israel. Because if we can't do anything but help dig our own grave, we have no reason to blame the rest of the world for holding out the shovel.

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  • Public Discussion (21)
Surya

So Yaakov, are you now thinking it might have been a mistake for Israel to fund Hamas for all those years? If Israel has a problem with Hamas now, I'd say it has no one to blame but itself, chickens do come home to roost, you know.

Israel likes to play the game of middle east politics rough and dirty, but then they when their scurrilous plans eventually backfire, they take no responsibility. They come weeping and bleating to the rest of the world saying it's not fair. Gimme a break, it's like a child throwing a tantrum.

I'm not sure any country deserves to be recognised until it grows up and learns to be a global citizen and a team player. Your emphasis on the phrase "The best interests of Israel" is ultra-nationalist, and an example of my point.

  • 4 votes
Reply#1 - Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:03 PM EDT
Dennis M Wright

I don't think it makes the slightest difference whether Israel funded Hamas or not.

We're dealing with the here and now. You can't replay the past.

Hamas themselves are living in the past, hankering for the way it was before Israel was formed. They too could do with getting up to date and real. Israel is not going away and they can't wish it away. Meantime Palestinians as a whole are paying a terrible price chasing this impossible cause.

  • 2 votes
#1.1 - Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:16 PM EDT
Yaakov

Israel to fund Hamas for all those years

Care to cite your sources Surya?

They come weeping and bleating to the rest of the world saying it's not fair.

Actually, it seems to me that the world is coming weeping and bleating to Hamas and Israel's enemies.

I'm not sure any country deserves to be recognised until it grows up and learns to be a global citizen and a team player.

So I take it that you are in agreement with Hamas?

Your emphasis on the phrase "The best interests of Israel" is ultra-nationalist, and an example of my point.

Excuse me? It is the duty of every country to be a global citizen, even when by doing so, they will be aiding their enemies who seek their destruction? I think that it is the duty of every country to protect its own citizens, and to attack and preempt those who would attack it. Call me ultra-nationalist if you want, but I think that your analysis of what makes a country "deserving of being recognised" is seriously flawed.

  • 4 votes
#1.2 - Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:43 PM EDT
Surya

Yaakov,
You want me to cite my sources? I could cite sources that say the Earth is flat, but that won't change the shape of the Earth. Sometimes "cite your sources" is such a cop-out, and it's disingenuous because it's a pretence that you don't already know that Israel funded Hamas. You're smarter than that Yaakov, so don't pretend.

Rather than cite my sources I'll play your game, but let you do the leg-work. Just google Israel funded Hamas. I got 697,000 hits when I did it.

I won't respond to your other two points because they are too childish and I tend to get angry when I respond to people who put words in my mouth. You do yourself, and the Israeli cause a disservice Yaakov.

    #1.3 - Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:08 PM EDT
    Yaakov

    Surya: I checked out the first couple of pages of results in your google search, and still have not found anything convincing or substantial proving your point (neither did I find anything on the topic of the shape of the earth).

    You said the following in reference to Israel:

    I'm not sure any country deserves to be recognised until it grows up and learns to be a global citizen and a team player.

    The direct implication from this statement is that in your opinion Israel has not "learned to be a global citizen" or a "team player" and therefore does not deserve to be recognized.

    This puts you in agreement with Hamas. If you care to show how I have twisted your statement and put words in your mouth, by all means, the floor is yours.

    Likewise, I find nothing wrong with my statement that every country has the responsibility to protect its own citizens. I fail to see how this attitude is doing a disservice to the Israeli cause. Of course, my blindness could be a result of my extreme ultra-Nationalism...

    • 4 votes
    #1.4 - Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:25 PM EDT
    Reply
    chill

    Are they really that stupid and ignorant

    Well many in the international community are pretty disgusted at Israel after the humanitarian catastrophe it created in Lebanon ... war crimes and all. Maybe this is one of the consequences of the grotesque charade of Israel and the USA stretching out peace negotiations so the last few days could be spent dropping millions of poorly targeted and often unexploded cluster bomblets in Lebanon -- it doesn't exactly garner international support ... for Lebanon, Gaza or any other Israeli issue.

    In Gaza, at this point the Palestinian people are suffering an awful lot more than Israel over Hamas' disastrous leadership and its fighting with Abbas. Meanwhile much of the Palestine authority's International funding has been cut by the quartet and others (so they haven't exactly ignored the situation) .... while the suffering of civilians worsens in Gaza.

    I sincerely hope that Israel can produce some real leaders who are capable of actually acting in the best interests of Israel.

    Yep they need some moral leaders that could avoid committing War crimes

    • 2 votes
    Reply#2 - Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:28 PM EDT
    Yaakov

    the humanitarian catastrophe it created in Lebanon

    How many were disgusted at Lebanon over the humanitarian catastrophe it created in Northern Israel?

    In Gaza, at this point the Palestinian people are suffering an awful lot more than Israel over Hamas' disastrous leadership and its fighting with Abbas.

    Hamas and the PLO's in-fighting is Israel's fault?

    Meanwhile much of the Palestine authority's International funding has been cut by the quartet and others

    They have plenty of money. They just don't want to spend it on their own people. They would rather spend it on more schemes at following through with their agenda of war against Israel.

    while the suffering of civilians worsens in Gaza.

    You cite the cut of funding (ie: free money) to Hamas as if this is Israel's fault or problem, and as if Hamas is deserving of receiving this funds merely because they exist. Please read the bold statement above, and tell me whether you think that this is a sufficient reason for the world to at least pause for a second before forking over more money to them. Where do you think they will spend it?

    • 3 votes
    #2.1 - Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:39 PM EDT
    chill

    How many were disgusted at Lebanon over the humanitarian catastrophe it created in Northern Israel?

    Very few people. Although many were disgusted at Hizbollah. Do you somehow believe that just because Hizbollah are terrorist thugs that Israel was justified for its Cluster bomb outrage at the close of hostilities or using Whte Phosphorous, (or .... I could go on)?

    In simple terms , two wrongs don't make a right.

    In Gaza, at this point the Palestinian people are suffering an awful lot more than Israel over Hamas' disastrous leadership and its fighting with Abbas.

    Hamas and the PLO's in-fighting is Israel's fault?

    Where did I say it was Israel's fault? Huh?

    You cite the cut of funding (ie: free money) to Hamas as if this is Israel's fault or problem, and as if Hamas is deserving of receiving this funds merely because they exist.

    You are grossly misquoting me- I never said it was Israel's fault. I very clearly mentioned it as one action by the West - as you were claiming the West was doing nothing. I agree with the cut in funding. But it is a difficult situation because ordinary palestinians are being harmed due to the corruption and evil intentions of their leaders. Thus cutting funding is a tough choice. Punish the evil leaders and hurt civilians in the process is never easy. Note, I said "Hamas disastrous leadership. You are too angry to listen it seems.

    ---------------------
    Yaakov, I responded to your post because it was so one sided. "Hamas is evil, why does everyone forsake Israel" was your tone. My response was that Israel (the current leadership) has a lot of answering to do as well. And that if you are unhappy with International support at the moment then you should perhaps be looking in the mirror so to speak (by that I mean looking at the bahavious of your government).

    I called Hamas leadership disastrous in my post. I in no way supported their actions.
    I blamed civilian suffering on the Palestinian infighting and the cut in international donations ----- I could - but didn't - also blame it on Israeli attacks on the region. But I didn't. As I see the main reason for the recent worsening situation for civilians as more tied to the Palestinian failure to capitalize on the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza.

    It seems you are so blinded in anger that you can't see that many in the world are ALSO disgusted with (in addition to Hamas and Hizbullah) recent Israeli atrocities. The cluster bombing, white phosphorous, delayed peace negotiations ... were disgusting and WAR-CRIMES.

    You claimed the international community was doing nothing. I pointed out this was not true. It is a difficult situation for people who really want peace. Hamas are clearly not part of a solution, but the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is appalling - and cutting funding difficult.

    • 4 votes
    #2.2 - Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:59 PM EDT
    chill

    Yaakov,

    FWIW

    Its a little annoying to be so badly misquoted by you and then to have my detailed response ignored.

    I'll assume the fact that you didn't respond is your way of apologizing.

    • 2 votes
    #2.3 - Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:06 PM EDT
    Yaakov

    chill888 - I apologize for misquiting you and construing your second paragraph above as having placed the blame on Israel for problems being caused by internal power struggles by the Palestinians.

    Yaakov, I responded to your post because it was so one sided. "Hamas is evil, why does everyone forsake Israel" was your tone. My response was that Israel (the current leadership) has a lot of answering to do as well.

    I thought that my tone was "Hamas is very open about their desires to destroy Israel, why does the world pretend not to hear and continue to support them". I do not recall complaining above about the world forsaking Israel. (I kind of take it for granted that that will happen, thus my call for strong leadership).

    As far as the ethics behind somme of Israel's actions in Lebanon, I refer you to a comment by Dennis on the post you cited.

    • 1 vote
    #2.4 - Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:13 AM EDT
    Reply
    urbane gorilla

    actually, the demands on Hamas are unrealistic inasmuch, as they are demands that hamas cease to be Hamas. It is what it is, and will pursue what it will pursue. In time, it will fail, because it is uncompromising.

    • 2 votes
    Reply#3 - Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:15 PM EDT
    josephus

    Why should Hamas accept the existence of something called Israel? Israel is an artificial political enity imposed on Palestine by the British and French and sustained by force of U.S. arms; its terrorists raped Palestine and caused nearly a million Palestinians to flee. Palestine's neighbors, such as Jordan, wanted no part of the displaced Palestinians either, but that it not a justification for Israel's existence. Israel now is an illegitimate sectarian rogue state whose supporters bought off the U.S. government years ago. If Hamas didn't exist, something else like it should and would.

      Reply#4 - Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:53 PM EDT
      Yaakov

      Thank you for your unique perspective on history Josephus. It is obvious that you are in complete support of Hamas's objectives. And like Hamas, you are not at all bashful about admiting it.

      • 3 votes
      #4.1 - Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:00 PM EDT
      Dennis M Wright

      I take it you won't be going to Israel for a holiday then Josephus.

      • 4 votes
      #4.2 - Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:15 PM EDT
      Dennis M Wright

      Why should Hamas accept the existence of something called Jordan (nee Transjordan)? Jordan is an artificial political enity(sic) imposed on Palestine by the British and French.

      Mind you, you probably reckon Jordan deserves to be wiped off the face of the earth for signing a peace treaty with Israel, likewise Egypt.

      • 6 votes
      #4.3 - Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:01 PM EDT
      Reply
      crazytrain

      On an unrelated matter:

      Do you think Ehud Olmert will be convicted and sent to jail for the alleged rapes?

        Reply#5 - Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:00 PM EDT
        urbane gorilla

        Katsav, crazytrain, Katsav - or are they all the same to you???

        • 2 votes
        #5.1 - Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:39 PM EDT
        crazytrain

        :) My deepest apologies. Will Katsav be convicted? I love split infinitives.

          #5.2 - Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:45 PM EDT
          urbane gorilla

          There were no infinitived in this entire exchange. Why do you have to gratuitously remark on split infinitives? There.

          • 1 vote
          #5.3 - Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:20 PM EDT
          Reply
          I SPY

          Nice article Yaakov. Very positive I will watch the comments with great interest.

            Reply#6 - Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:41 AM EDT
            Jamal-134483

            Israel is a very powerful country in all aspects,....(intilectually, financially), for this Israel can only defeat itself. I will be happy to see the day Israel says, enough is enough, lets solve this problem, believe me a peaceful Israel will more powerful and liked by everyone around the world. But then again this whole planet is just crap, Africa, Asia, everywhere, life just sucks for everyone that is the reality of planet earth.

              Reply#7 - Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:54 AM EDT
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