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YAAKOV

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Ponderings and Links on Israel and Jewish Issues and Technology
Articles Posted: 72  Links Seeded: 601
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An Accurate Assessment of the Situation in Israel

Sun Nov 5, 2006 4:36 AM EST
world-news, israel, terrorism, middle-east, hamas, peace, fatah, ehud-olmert, plo, kadima, avigdor-lieberman, israeli-politics, yisrael-beiteinu
By Yaakov

Live Poll

Do you agree with Avigdor Lieberman's assessment of the situation in Israel?

View Results
  • 5679
    Yes
    43%
  • 5680
    No
    43%
  • 5681
    Partially
    14%

VoteTotal Votes: 7

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Two weeks ago, Ehud Olmert added the Yisrael Beiteinu party to his coalition in the Knesset. He was widely criticized for this, as many of Yisrael Beiteinu's political positions are diametrically opposed to Olmert's stated goals of giving away much of Israel to terrorists in the hope that this will appease them and cause them to lay down their weapons. (Not to mention that Yisrael Beiteinu is against the entire platform of the Labor party who is #2 in the coalition).

So why did everyone accept Yisrael Beiteinu? Because currently there is a very weak coalition. Any of the parties involved can break up the coalition and cause new elections at a moments notice, for any reason. Olmert, whose sole concern is (not the security of Israel but rather) to maintain his personal hold on political power, needed Yisrael Beiteinu to shore up the ranks. He knows very well (as does Labor) that in the event of early elections any time in the near future, his party would be relegated to the gutter, and that just would not do.

So they sucked it up, sold out and invited in Avigdor Lieberman and his gang.

Since then, I have seen lots of criticism and name calling of Yisrael Beiteinu from many quarters. They have been called racist, fascist, pro-settler, anti-worker, pro-religious, anti-religous and much more. The New York Times, summing up the position held by many who are still under the delusion that Olmert's plan of giving away lots of land in exchange for nothing will result in peace (apparently they slept through the whole war in Lebanon and the ongoing conflicts in Gaza) wrote the following in an anonymous editorial published on October 25, entitled "The Wrong Partner in Israel":

Badly weakened by criticism of his conduct of this summer's inconclusive war in Lebanon, Israel's prime minister, Ehud Olmert, has chosen to make an unwise and damaging trade-off. Bringing the pro-settler Israel Beiteinu party into his governing coalition reinforces his vulnerable parliamentary majority. But it makes it virtually impossible for Mr. Olmert to carry out the partial West Bank withdrawal program he ran on just seven months ago.

(Here we come to the meat of the issue). Lieberman read what the NY Times had to say (which is very much representative of the current world-view held by the Western media) and responded with a letter to the editor with A New Road for Israel:

Your editorial got it wrong.

The Middle East peace process has failed miserably, and trying to breathe new life into an already defunct process is not the way to go.

Israel needs a new direction. I suggest that we redefine our goals and focus on bringing security and stability to the Middle East instead of setting our sights on an unrealistic, unattainable fantasy.

The declared missions of Hamas and Hezbollah are not to expel Israel from Lebanon or Gaza but to eradicate all Jews from Tel Aviv, Haifa and Jerusalem, and until they achieve that goal, they will not lay down their arms.

Israel is where the war on terror started. Sadly, we have had to stand alone for many decades in the face of unrelenting attacks on our Western ideas and values of freedom and democracy.

After the terror attacks of 9/11, Madrid in 2004, London in 2005 (and the list goes on), the world knows better.

That's why old thinking, regardless of how well intentioned, simply won't work.

Thirteen years is long enough to determine that the peace process has failed.

It is time to go back to the drawing board, re-evaluate the goals of the peace process and start anew.

Although there are many things about Lieberman's policies that I disagree with, I must say that having a politician in Israel who will actually admit out loud that Hamas is only interested in destroying Israel and that the current policy of appeasement held by the Left-wing government is no good is a very positive change. Although Olmert has brought him in in order to firm up his hold on the government, the entrance of Yisrael Beiteinu into the coalition is just one more sign that the current political leadership in Israel is overdue for change, and is indicative of the direction that this change will be when it eventually comes.

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  • Public Discussion (17)
Fipe

That's why old thinking, regardless of how well intentioned, simply won't work.

Thirteen years is long enough to determine that the peace process has failed.

It is time to go back to the drawing board, re-evaluate the goals of the peace process and start anew.

So what's his plan? Credible peace plans are few and far between in the region, and sadly I don't think that the alternatives to Israel ceding control over the West Bank and Gaza are really that workable either.

Maybe I'm being shockingly naive, but is giving the West Bank to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt a totally unreasonable possibility? They were actually part of those respective countries before the Six-Day War, they're both fairly moderate Arab states and incorporating those relatively small areas into existing countries would probably result in more stability than trying to create a fairly small state in two portions with serious infrastructure problems.

Just a thought. Zealots of both sides, flame away.

  • 1 vote
Reply#1 - Sun Nov 5, 2006 6:19 AM EST
Yaakov

No need to flame.

This is Lieberman's plan.

Fipe said:

Maybe I'm being shockingly naive, but is giving the West Bank to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt a totally unreasonable possibility? They were actually part of those respective countries before the Six-Day War, they're both fairly moderate Arab states and incorporating those relatively small areas into existing countries would probably result in more stability than trying to create a fairly small state in two portions with serious infrastructure problems.

Not totally unreasonable. But in the end, not acceptable. Any solution that involves giving Israel giving away land in the hopes that this will lead to a peaceful solution is based on the assumption that Israel's supposed "partner" would at some point throw down their weapons and say "ok, let's Israel is here to stay, I may not like it but I accept it. Now let's get on with our lives". Unfortunately, that is not the case. The Palestinian leadership has been very consistent with their position that they are after the destruction of Israel (as Lieberman points out), and this will not change by Israel giving away land (in that case, Israel's actions would be perceived as signs of weakness, as they have been in the past, and will only invite and encourage further attack).

And although Israel has been able to maintain treaties with Jordan and Egypt, I would hardly call them "fairly moderate" (especially Egypt).

I do agree though with your approach of incorporating the Palestinian population with existing countries. This is about 58 years overdue.

  • 3 votes
#1.1 - Sun Nov 5, 2006 6:30 AM EST
borg

I do agree though with your approach of incorporating the Palestinian population with existing countries. This is about 58 years overdue.

Really?
Heaven forbid one actually addresses the clearest source of Palestinian antagonism toward the State of Israel and afford them the self-determination all other peoples that surround them has sought and achieved.

    #1.2 - Sun Nov 5, 2006 11:29 AM EST
    borg

    Maybe I'm being shockingly naive, but is giving the West Bank to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt a totally unreasonable possibility?

    Not shockingly naive, just ignorant with the usual subtle racism that for some reason I get in trouble for pointing out.
    Why should it be Israel's decision that these Palestinians can just be Jordanian because they live here and those Palestinians can be Egyptian cause they live there when the Palestinians themselves don't think or feel that way ? The Palestinians of Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem don't divide themselves that way.
    You would never suggest such a thing on any other people but for some reason these sort of propositions are routinely recommended for the Palestinians as reasonable solutions.
    It's one thing that continues to perplex me.

    • 1 vote
    #1.3 - Sun Nov 5, 2006 11:42 AM EST
    Yaakov

    @borg - I think that everyone in Israel would be very happy (and I think that the fairest overall solution) would be if Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Iran did the following: for every Jew they kicked out after 1948 and 1967, they take in one Palestinian. That they have refrained from doing this in favor of using these people as "refugees", keeping them penned in camps for 50 years to serve as good fodder for the press and to further their political agendas is tragic. But it can be reversed very quickly if there was a will to do it in the Arab world. (In other words, I am not so optimistic).

    • 2 votes
    #1.4 - Sun Nov 5, 2006 12:14 PM EST
    Yaakov

    Why should it be Israel's decision that these Palestinians can just be Jordanian because they live here and those Palestinians can be Egyptian cause they live there when the Palestinians themselves don't think or feel that way ?

    It shouldn't be Israel's decision. It is the decision of these people to wage a constant war seeking the destruction of Israel. If they were content to live in peace and to accept the fact that Israel exists, then we would never have gotten this far in the discussion.

    However, if the popular decision among them is to continue to wage war against Israel, then why is it up to Israel to think about their feelings? The moral high ground is very nice...unless it gets you killed.

    And the parallel to Jewish refugees is very appropriate. In the end of the day, these people have to live somewhere. Preferably not kept in refugee camps by their own brethren. They had the opportunity to make peace with Israel and they continue to blow it (pun intended). They make that choice on their own, then they have to reap the consequences as well.

    • 3 votes
    #1.5 - Sun Nov 5, 2006 12:21 PM EST
    Fipe

    Not shockingly naive, just ignorant with the usual subtle racism that for some reason I get in trouble for pointing out.

    Don't you ever, ever accuse me of racism. Even of 'subtle racism'. I note merely that Gaza and the West Bank were part of other countries pre-1967, and that incorporating the areas into existent states would probably make achieving security easier than trying to establish a new one. I know perfectly well that that suggestion isn't perfect. But neither are any other solutions that are in the arena.

      #1.6 - Sun Nov 5, 2006 3:28 PM EST
      Yaakov

      I note merely that Gaza and the West Bank were part of other countries pre-1967

      The West Bank had a very flimsy lega; status before 1967. Jordan was in charge, but no one (other than England, I think) recognized this claim.

      • 1 vote
      #1.7 - Sun Nov 5, 2006 3:41 PM EST
      borg

      I think that everyone in Israel would be very happy (and I think that the fairest overall solution) would be if Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Iran did the following: for every Jew they kicked out after 1948 and 1967, they take in one Palestinian.

      Yaakov - I think that the likelyhood of refugees outside of Palestine returning is basically none and agree that these other countries should address this (at least on humanitarian grounds) by granting citizenship. This is one of the things that, although the law may be on their side, the practicality of the situation probably outweighs the need for justice to be served by an unconditional right of return.

      As far as your arithmetic in regards to the Jewish refugees I'm having a hard time finding good source material on this issue (something along the lines of Morris' Palestinian Refugee Problem book - not just unsupported statements by politicians). Please forward anything you have in any case as I have not had much luck researching this topic. Thanks.

        #1.8 - Tue Nov 7, 2006 2:48 AM EST
        Yaakov

        Please forward anything you have in any case as I have not had much luck researching this topic. Thanks.

        Check out the Justice for Jews website (including charts and papers (pdf).

        Also check out the wikipedia article. I also found one book on Amazon, though I have never read it so I cannot vouch for it.

        Hope that that helps.

        • 1 vote
        #1.9 - Tue Nov 7, 2006 3:00 AM EST
        borg

        Hope that that helps.

        It does though unfortunately the books there seem unavailable in any state,city or university library here which is unfortunate.
        Just one thing though - assuming that there is cause for reparations for Jews expelled from Arab lands how does this change the rights of Palestinians expelled, for reparations from Israel ?

          #1.10 - Wed Nov 8, 2006 11:47 PM EST
          Yaakov

          assuming that there is cause for reparations for Jews expelled from Arab lands how does this change the rights of Palestinians expelled, for reparations from Israel ?

          I'm not going to address the question here of how many of the so-called refugees have legitimate claims for reparations, and for how much. For the sake of argument, let's assume that they exist.

          No matter what, if and in whatever way a final peace agreement (which both sides adhere to) is finally established, I guaruntee for you that neither side will be fully happy with the outcome, neither side will get everything that it wants, and both sides will have to give in on some major issue. It is a fact of negotiation, and it is most definitely true in this case (assuming that such a situation could come about where both sides would actually adhere to an agreement).

          All of the refugees returning to Israel and taking over whatever old properties they may or not be entitled to - I am sorry, but it just wont happen.

          Likewise, 600,000 Jews and their descendents who were expelled from Arab countries are not going back.

          I am suggsting a simple exachange of assets on paper. The property rights of Jews from Arab countries are assigned to the Palestinian refugees. If the other Arab countries are actually sincere and have some type of desire to help their brethren, then they would contribute to reestablish the refugees, provide housing, jobs (and in turn get add some value to their own countries), using the proceeds of stolen Jewish assets and properties as a source of funding. (And I am sure that Israel, the US and EU would be helping as well).

          • 2 votes
          #1.11 - Thu Nov 9, 2006 2:21 AM EST
          Reply
          Dennis M Wright

          I agree with Lieberman's assessment of the problem, but not his solution.

          Peace is de facto not attainable. There is no point seeking it, at least not in the near term.

          Security is also not achievable 100%, but it may be achievable 97% or something like that.

          Israel should concentrate on that at the same time as getting its message out to the world. That means following security policies which are seen to strike a balance between effectiveness and respect for the humanity of the Palestinians (if not for their actions and goals). Israel must make its dilemma and its policies clear to the world, or it just ends up feeding the spin machine sponsored by those who stand foursquare with the arabs that want to see Israel destroyed. We've seen enough of the latter here on NV.

          • 2 votes
          Reply#2 - Sun Nov 5, 2006 7:40 AM EST
          I SPY

          The Fascism of Fools. He will disappoint you Yaakov. Those Rockets will keep coming until the Stars Burn out.

            Reply#3 - Sun Nov 5, 2006 7:48 AM EST
            Dennis M Wright

            They won't you know. Whatever it takes to stop them they must be stopped and they will.

            It's very hard to root them out with only so many troops and a million people prepared to shuffle the rockets around in a rabbit warren so they're always somewhere else when the IDF show up. But eventually they will be able to narrow down the areas where the stockpiles are kept. We'll get some last stand gun battles, maybe some more hordes of women turning up on white chargers to try to rescue their men.

            The Palestinians' best hope is to bring international media pressure against Israel - the one thing they're good at.

            But is this another Hizbullah? No.

            Sorry SPY.

            Bad luck.

              #3.1 - Sun Nov 5, 2006 7:57 AM EST
              Yaakov

              The Fascism of Fools. He will disappoint you Yaakov.

              I SPY - I agree with Lieberman's assessment of the situation (especially when compared with the "establishment" view). However, I do not put my trust in Lieberman. I put my trust in God. And even as far a politics go, I do not think that Lieberman is the be-all and end-all in the Israeli scene. I disagree with some of his significant positions, and I do not see myself voting for him in the future. That said, I think that as far as the current government goes, he is a step in the Right direction (in both meanings of the word).

              Since you use the word with such ease, can you please clarify why Yisrael Beiteinu is fascist (and why presumably that makes him different than other parties in political control in Israel)?

              • 2 votes
              #3.2 - Sun Nov 5, 2006 8:17 AM EST
              I SPY

              I do not put my trust in Lieberman. I put my trust in God.

              That is good news. I would be more inclined to say that Lieberman was a Fascist, he does have some very troubling Rightist leanings. I just can not see how the use of force has helped Israel thus Far in the Palestinian Campaign. I know that Gazza is a Natural Fortress and you cant send troops in, if you could we would have gone in to remove the Turks, instead the Australian troops took Beersheba and Jerusalem, then Damascus, so its not like I dont understand the Geography or the Nature of the area. I have been to Israel twice and Gazza and the West Bank once too. I think the more force Israel uses the less effective they are. That is just my observation.

              • 3 votes
              #3.3 - Sun Nov 5, 2006 10:22 AM EST
              Reply
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