Arabs for Israel

@ Yaakov

is the temple mount is the only place Jews can pray in Jerusalem?

Though if they tried to pray outside in an Arab neighborhood, they better have bodyguards.

I imagine Arab's feel pretty much the same way in Jewish neighborhoods.

Lucid, that's a pretty ridiculous statement. Do you have anything to back this up?

It's a ridiculous statement? You really don't think that there is some matching fear on the other side, it's all the other way?

http://www.wordwonder.com/caged.shtml
http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2006/03/08/124878-un-jewish-settlers-harass-palestinians
http://www.mediamonitors.net/samah2.html

I'm really shocked you would tell me it's a ridiculous statement. Honestly, I didn't think the prejudice went so deep that you'd assume that it's not reciprocal. How would you have a situation like this and not have both sides end up feeling the same way?

Lucid, that's nuts. Yaakov, I'll let you handle this as you actually live in Israel. I'll just note that Arabs are part of Israeli government and while the tensions may run high on occasion, and in some neighborhoods there may be explicit animosity, it is not at all comparable. How many times have you heard of Jewish civilians murdered by Arabs in Arab neighborhoods? And how many times have you heard of Arab civilians hurt by Jews in Jewish neighborhoods? Anyway, Yaakov, I think you would probably be much more articulate in your response.

Please cut and past the second link and put it up in your browser. I just quoted a link where Arab civilians were complaining about violence on the part of settlers. The others are from an educated Arab describing his feelings of oppression. Clearly there are Arabs who feel the same way.

It's not comparable? Are you sure they don't think so? You've changed the terms of the discussion because of your need to defend Israel.

I would say Israel has done a better job with human rights in the main parts of Israel, but as a matter of fact I do maintain that Arabs feel oppressed. I've already given you three sources for that opinion, which I found in about five minutes.

The second link provides extremely little useful and verifiable information.

Having said that, I am aware that there are places where Isreali-Palestine tensions are extremely high with some harassment possibly taking place. But I think what you are lacking is a sense of perspective in this discussion. The danger to Israelis in Arab neighborhoods is significantly higher than the dangers to Arabs in Israeli neighborhoods, which is the initial point you responded to.

As far as incidents when Israelis harass Palestinians, while it is significantly less grave an offense, it is still an offense and I do not think it is ok. However, when tensions run high, both sides are going to become emotional and there will be incidents. Comparing harassment to murder, however, would be counter-productive in this discussion.

Unfortunately Hamas represents part of the population itself, so throwing them to the dogs doesn't really accomplish much in the long run. Like a hydra, you cut its head off and in time two more take its place.

I don't like Hamas either, unfortunately people seem to have difficulty understanding the proper way to fight terrorism. Using the same methods as you would in a classic war don't work.

No offense, but I'm getting weary of the hydra analogy. It suggests bringing killers to justice is a lost cause.

Fighting murder is an ages long, ongoing battle. Civilized society has failed to completely stop the murder of innocent civilians throughout its entire history.

A society driven by LAW requires murderers and those who aid them be brought to justice, regardless if it ever "wins" the "war" or not.

The problem in the middle east is the stance of the Palestinians regarding the legality of murdering unarmed civilians.......as long as they are Jews. Palestine MUST start bringing its murderers to justice. The people of Palestine cannot have peace without the widely accepted civilized rule of law that flatly states killing is wrong regardless of the identity of the victim. They cannot have peace as long as they elect criminals to their government who condone murder of any kind.

And, as long as the criminals use mortars and rockets, the military is the best choice in fighting them, unfortunately. Terrorists are essentially blackmailers who are secretly supplied large guns by rogue nations. Attacks with military grade, long range artillery pretty much requires military grade response......regardless if civilians are initiating the attacks or not. The is doubly true when the criminals attacking are not brought to justice by their own authorities.

*** THIS is doubly true.....

I think we've managed to hit exactly the nature of the problem, the difference of opinion between us.

No offense, but I'm getting weary of the hydra analogy. It suggests bringing killers to justice is a lost cause.

Fighting murder is an ages long, ongoing battle. Civilized society has failed to completely stop the murder of innocent civilians throughout its entire history.

A society driven by LAW requires murderers and those who aid them be brought to justice, regardless if it ever "wins" the "war" or not.

It's not a society, it's two, two which are at war. Israel has strayed across it's borders and that's why this is a far more complicated matter then that. Both legally, and morally.

And the hydra analogy does suggest something like that. In this circumstance, it does suggest that pursuing them is a lost cause, because the act of catching the murderer makes several more. It is an extremely accurate analogy.

And, as long as the criminals use mortars and rockets, the military is the best choice in fighting them, unfortunately. Terrorists are essentially blackmailers who are secretly supplied large guns by rogue nations. Attacks with military grade, long range artillery pretty much requires military grade response......regardless if civilians are initiating the attacks or not. The is doubly true when the criminals attacking are not brought to justice by their own authorities.

This is obviously not the case. If you can sit here and say that this works, then you have a strange view of Middle Eastern history. We got here because people think the military is the best choice in fighting these battles. It isn't. We have this problem because we persist in responding to terrorism in the same way that we responded to classic warfare. It's not working. It hasn't been working.

Your views are so totally based on Israel being able to just walk and assume the role of policeman, I don't think it's possible to achieve any meeting of the minds between us.

The thing I keep noticing about your analagies is that you simply make the connection that Palestine has to do this, has to do that... does the fact that Israel is seizing territory not it's own ever become relevant I wonder?

When the Russians seized a bunch of real estate by force after World War II to protect it's borders, and the citizens there fought back in different ways, were all their responses justified too? Is the only difference that the terrorists are killing more? Is the difference in any way related to their skin color?

What works is justice for people who murder unarmed civilians.

Your views are so totally based on Israel being able to just walk and assume the role of policeman, I don't think it's possible to achieve any meeting of the minds between us.

My views cannot possibly be determined by a couple of posts on the internet. Please refrain from pretending to know what they are.

For clarification, my views are totally based on Palestine punishing its own murderers, as does every other nation who claims to be civilized. Civilized societies demand justice through the enforcement of law.

If a nation refuses to bring its inhabitants to justice, then they should expect conflict. Condoning violence against others only breeds further violence.

This goes for any nation on the planet. The Taliban found this out the hard way.

If Palestine polices its own people and brings those who attempt to murder to justice, Israel no longer needs to extract its own.

Minor territory disputes happen all across the planet. Only in certain areas do people believe randomly spraying rockets at unarmed people is a valid way to settle them.

Are you suggesting Jews pluck, fry and eat Arabs seasoned with eleven herbs and spices out of paper buckets?

well I'll flag that as inflammatory no value etc

Flag it and shut up already.

If asking for clarification on such a vague, derogatory, and rather silly analogy is bad for you, it's not really all that important we all know about it.