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Apartheid looks like this???

Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:38 AM EST
world-news, israel, palestine, west-bank, anti-semitism, jimmy-carter, apartheid, judea, samaria, anti-israel
By Yaakov
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Although it is not a new phenomena, I am getting more annoyed of late at the one-sided portrayal of events in Israel designed to cast Israeli as the evil, apartheid, hate-driven society that seeks to oppress the peace-loving Muslims who "just want to get along". Here is a recent example, from a seed by Keld (titled "Apartheid looks like this").

As a result (of the many checkpoints put by Israel in the West Bank - Y), moving goods and people from one place to the next in the West Bank has become a nightmare of logistics and costly delays. At the checkpoints, food spoils, patients die, and children are prevented from reaching their schools. The World Bank blames the checkpoints and roadblocks for strangling the Palestinian economy.

Pretty clear cut case, right? Jimmy Carter sure knows what he is talking about!

Now please read the same paragraph again, this time with my comments inserted (in italics):

    As a result, moving goods and people from one place to the next in the West Bank has become a nightmare of logistics and costly delays. Thus, the checkpoints accomplish their primary goal. Terrorists have had a much harder time transporting their supplies and personnel in order to set up attacks on Israeli civilians. Other terrorists gangs have been thwarted in their attempts at kidnapping and murdering Israeli citizens by these checkpoints. The existence of these checkpoints is credited with saving dozens if not hundreds of Israeli lives (Jew and Arab alike) and many more injuries. At the checkpoints, food spoils, patients die, and children are prevented from reaching their schools. Though the reader may be surprised as to why these people and items are stopped at checkpoints when there should obviously be no reason for this, Israels motive become clearer when one is made aware that in the past, Hamas, the PLO and their brother organizations have used ambulances (with patients and without), women (pregnant or not), food and medical shipments, and children as delivery vehicles for terrorists on their way to murder Israelis, or for explosives being sent to their final destination. It in reaction to this type of unconscionable behavior on the part of the terrorist organizations that the Israel security forces have responded by being cautious of all traffic crossing the checkpoints. The World Bank blames the checkpoints and roadblocks for strangling the Palestinian economy. However, many people who have read of the civil war between the PLO and Hamas over the past few months, as well as the destructive behavior of the Palestinian population in Gaza following Israel's surrendering the Strip a year and a half ago blame the leaders of the various Palestinian terrorist organizations for choosing to war over the needs of their own people and thus strangling of their own economy.

I have seen checkpoints with my own eyes. I drive through them all the time. I would be lying if I said that they are not disruptive to the Palestinian population living in Judea and Samaria. However, I would also be lying if I said something along with the one-sided rubbish quoted by the Electronic Intifada or Jimmy Carter and pretended that Israel was not actually trying to defend itself from daily threats against its infrastructure and civilian population by groups that want Israel's destruction. Israel is not completely innocent. But to pretend that they are completely guilty by painting a false picture accomplishes nothing, misinforms other people and only leads to more hatred.

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  • Groups: Counterterrorism, Global War on Terror, Israel Talk, rightwingers
  • Regions: Israel
  • Public Discussion (60)
analog ninja

here is a link to a story and un reports that i seeded the other day.

there are some serious issues with regards to the future of the survival of the people in the gaza strip, whether it be their own doing or no, it is a noticed and studied phenomena.

  • 2 votes
Reply#1 - Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:02 PM EST
Forest Browne

Interesting, and I WANT to hear more from you, but just as an aside, when or perhaps better termed will Israel support the two country state approach. Seems to me that this is the best approach to take and common ground could be found. Instead steadfastly, especially here in the US support for a two state approach is hardly supported at all.

Thanks

Forest

  • 2 votes
Reply#2 - Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:03 PM EST
Yaakov

when or perhaps better termed will Israel support the two country state approach

My personal opinion is that as long as the PLO and Hamas (or whoever is in charge in Gaza and Ramallah) does not disavow all calls to destroy Israel and does not openly acknowledge Israel's existence, and the reality that Israel is here to stay, it is utter folly (and suicidal) for Israel to do anything by strengthen its defenses and maintain the status quo. Giving the Palestinians a viable state (as a two-state solution calls for) could be a boon for the region, if these pre-conditions are met. However, if the PLO and Hamas (neither of whom will officially recognize Israel, stop calling for its destruction, etc) are given strategically important land that makes the heart of Israel that much more vulnerable to attack before this takes place, it will only lead to a more protracted war in which many more people will be killed and nothing in terms of peace will be achieved.

That said, given the approach of the current Israeli government, and the complete disdain of the Israeli Prime Minister and his cronies towards Israel's security in order to look good for the Americans and gain more personal power, I expect Olmert to fully support a two-state solution, and with every declaration by Hamas and PLO about how they do not recognize Israel, Olmert should get even more enthusiastic about giving them land for empty non-commitments.

  • 3 votes
#2.1 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:10 AM EST
Forest Browne

I frankly am not sure that answered my question, but thanks for trying.

Forest

  • 2 votes
#2.2 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:13 AM EST
Reply
ajs

Great article Yaakov, there is a good reason no one refutes your statements, and that reason is that you are right.

Keep up the work, when I see a Yaakov seed/article in my watch list it is the first I check.

  • 10 votes
#3 - Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:25 PM EST
Yaakov

Thanks ajs

  • 2 votes
#3.1 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:54 AM EST
Benno Hansen

No one refutes the comments inserted because everyone already has been listening to the touting litany for decades. Everyone knows why Israel claims their right to run an Apartheid country.

  • 1 vote
#3.2 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:51 AM EST
Yaakov

Benno - Since it seems so obvious to you, please take one of the italicized comments above and refute it.

  • 1 vote
#3.3 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:16 AM EST
Benno Hansen

I said no one refutes them. Not that I would. I wouldn't have been able to write that without having read your italicized text. I think the South African UN lawyer's recent report does a pretty good job, don't you?

    #3.4 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:39 AM EST
    ignoblus

    Benjamin Pogrund:

    Well, the doctors, nurses and receptionists were a mixture of Jews and Arabs. They worked together, they laughed together, they were kind to all the patients. And the patients, too, were a mixture of Jews and Arabs, men, women and children.

    It confirmed my own personal experience of nearly four years ago when I spent more than a month at Hadassah Mount Scopus hospital in Jerusalem. It was exactly the same there.

    Anyone who talks about Israel being an apartheid state must come and look at humanity in practice in hospitals and clinics. It's inconceivable to think of anything remotely like this having been allowed in apartheid South Africa.

    Now, that doesn't mean that all the checkpoints are equal, or that we have to support them. It just means that the apartheid analogy is lunacy. And, since you raise the report from John Dugard:

    The mandate of special rapporteur on Palestine -- created in 1993 by the discredited and now defunct UN Commission on Human Rights -- is to investigate only violations by Israel, a one-sided duty John Dugard has zealously embraced since his appointment to the post in 2001.

    Find me one other rapporteur in the UN with a similar mandate to report only on the abuses committed by a single entity.

    • 4 votes
    #3.5 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:09 PM EST
    Benno Hansen

    Find me one other rapporteur in the UN with a similar mandate to report only on the abuses committed by a single entity.

    UN appoints Special Rapporteurs on issues/territories with extraordinary events to keep track of. Obviously, Palestine has extraordinary amounts of human rights abuses to report, mostly committed by Israel.

    Your link to that "UN Watch" think surprised me. I'm pretty amazed something like that even exists. In particular, the article on John Dugard is stupid.

      #3.6 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:01 PM EST
      Yaakov

      I said no one refutes them. Not that I would

      Everyone knows why Israel claims their right to run an Apartheid country.

      In particular, the article on John Dugard is stupid.

      Wrong.

      Wrong.

      There you have it, folks. Benno Hansen has (through his different comments on this post) delivered a most convincing argument for his position,.

      Anything Else?

      Seriously - other than making blanket statements about other positions that go completely unsupported, do you have anything to contribute here? Others (including even Gideon Polya) are more than willing to put forth cogent arguments for their positions, and bring supporting material. Can you do the same? If so, by all means. Otherwise, I hate to tell you, but not too many people will take anything that you say seriously.

      • 4 votes
      #3.7 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:09 PM EST
      Benno Hansen

      Wow Yaakov. That was an impressive summary of my comments here. Perhaps I should let you have the last "word" here then and leave you guys at your reality construction project?

        #3.8 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:48 PM EST
        ignoblus

        Benno, point one special rapporteur out to me who has a similar mandate to Dugard. That is, whose mandate is to report only on the actions of one entity. Most are to report on an issue or an area; his mandate is to report only on the abuses committed by a single entity.

        • 2 votes
        #3.9 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:19 PM EST
        Benno Hansen

        What Wikipedia has on him is this bullet point...

        • Palestinian territories - John Dugard, Special Rapporteur on human rights (1993-

        Most human rights crimes committed in the Palestinian territories are committed by Israel, but he is actually commenting on "Palestinians who fire Qassam rockets into Israel". I really don't see how you have any point.

        • 1 vote
        #3.10 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:28 PM EST
        ignoblus

        Now, for the first time in 14 years. And it's outside his mandate. Show me someone else with the same mandate.

        • 2 votes
        #3.11 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:28 PM EST
        ignoblus

        His job description, or U.N. mandate, deliberately excludes Palestinian human-rights abuses. As Dugard lectured the Israeli representative on October 19: "I have a limited mandate, which is to investigate human rights violations by Israelis, not by Palestinians." The pre-determined outcome, however, has never been a problem for this lawyer. Far from being embarrassed, he launched into this year's diatribe this way: "Today I deliver my annual criticism of Israel's human rights record."

        There is no perennial criticism at the U.N. of the human-rights record of any other state, or terror organization for that matter. Just Israel.

        Anne Bayefsky

        • 3 votes
        #3.12 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:51 PM EST
        Benno Hansen

        For crying out loud: Israel is a state with plenty of nuclear weapons, a world wide assassination and spying network plus a right wing, nationalist political background. Palestine is a group of fenced in refugee camps about to burst with desperate people. You do not have a point.

        • 1 vote
        #3.13 - Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:51 AM EST
        ignoblus

        You claim Israel is an apartheid state, and to support that you quoted from Dugard. I quoted someone who worked to end apartheid who points out that massive differences and lunacy of the charge and gave quite good reasons as to why Dugard's very role in addition to his views is biased. Now, do you want to concede that you are just plain wrong when you claim Israel is an apartheid state? Or do you want to talk about something else and pretend you're being relevant? Having nuclear weapons does not make Israel an apartheid state.

        • 5 votes
        #3.14 - Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:22 AM EST
        omaha jimDeleted
        ignoblus

        Here, btw, is a Muslim taking issue with the apartheid analogy. In addition to her own well informed view, she quotes someone whose name should carry some weight:

        Even the eminence grise of Palestinian nationalism, the late Edward Said, stated flat out that "Israel is not South Africa". How could it be when an Israeli publisher translated Said's seminal work, Orientalism, into Hebrew?

        To make these apartheid analogies is lunacy and demonization and nothing more.

        • 5 votes
        #3.16 - Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:46 AM EST
        omaha jimDeleted
        ignoblus

        Now see, you go from

        In October 2003, the Israel Defence Forces' chief of staff told the press that road closures in the West Bank and Gaza were feeding Palestinian anger.

        straight to

        its the fact that the israelis keep on electing the same racist apartheid campaigning people that makes me not give them an ounce of respect.

        There's absolutely no logic to that. It's purely demonization.

        • 3 votes
        #3.18 - Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:55 PM EST
        omaha jimDeleted
        ignoblus

        who asid any of this was logical?

        I have no idea what you're getting at unless you're admitting to refusing to present any sort of argument for your position. Your statements form a non sequitor, yet it would seem you're presenting them as an argument.

        • 2 votes
        #3.20 - Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:34 PM EST
        omaha jimDeleted
        ignoblus

        let me get this straight. your people are unning an apartheid campaign

        If you want to argue that Israel is apartheid, you can't start out by assuming it. That's called begging the question.

        • 3 votes
        #3.22 - Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:23 PM EST
        omaha jimDeleted
        Yaakov

        ignoblus - you are wasting your time trying to argue with people who have no intention of doing anything than continuously spouting their garbage over and over again. Omaha Jim cannot and will not respond to any of your actual points because he doesn't know much more about the situation than the two sentences of accusations that he keeps repeating over and over again. Nearly everyone who has read this thread can see this - you are attempting to hold a debate, he is refusing and just parroting the same anti-Israel propaganda over and over. Nothing else to be done, I am afraid.

        Omaha Jim - any more comments making blanket accusations of racism, etc without any supporting evidence will be deleted.

        • 3 votes
        #3.24 - Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:52 PM EST
        omaha jimDeleted
        ignoblus

        it is not a matter of faith. i agree with the united nations reports.

        This is merely an appeal to authority, not a logical argument.

        It is one method of obtaining propositional knowledge, but a fallacy in regard to logic, because the validity of a claim does not follow from the credibility of the source. The corresponding reverse case would be an ad hominem attack: to imply that the claim is false because the asserter is objectionable.

        I've already given reasons to doubt the authority of Dugard (who is not, btw, the UN) and offered statements from two authorities disagreeing with him. In contrast to your claims, I provided the reasoning of my sources. One of my sources offered an appeal to authority, but did so properly.

        If you want to show that Israel is an apartheid state you can't just assert that it is so.

        • 3 votes
        #3.26 - Thu Mar 1, 2007 9:48 AM EST
        ignoblus

        And now, with comment #3.25, your rhetoric has slipped even further. More begging the question, and false category mistakes that typically get called racist.

        • 3 votes
        #3.27 - Thu Mar 1, 2007 10:08 AM EST
        omaha jimDeleted
        Yaakov

        then you claim that we are biased when we criticize you

        Wrong. Nothing wrong with criticism when it is based on reality.

        We claim that you are biased when you make numerous ill-informed statements, blanket accusations of racism against Jews and Israel, misquote or make up history regarding the region and relations and wars between Israel and its neighbors, completely ignore the constant threats that Israel has faced since its founding, as well as the daily threats to Israeli civilian lives from your freedom fighters, pretend (or maybe you actually think) that the PLO and Hamas are subjugated, peace-seeking groups and Israel is the constant and only violent party and keep on repeating the same accusations over and over while ignoring requests for you to substantiate any of your claims or back yourself up as any way.

        In response to that, we claim that you are biased (among other things).

        • 4 votes
        #3.29 - Thu Mar 1, 2007 11:33 AM EST
        omaha jimDeleted
        Oluseye

        You're the expert Ignoblus; Below Gideon Polya writes

        7. profoundly offensive constraints on inter-marriage (Israeli marriage to Palestinians effectively prohibited because co-habitation in Israel prohibited - utterly disgusting and unforgivably offensive racist laws in both cases);

        Is this true? If it is how is it anything but racist?

        • 1 vote
        #3.31 - Fri Mar 2, 2007 7:26 PM EST
        omaha jimDeleted
        ignoblus

        Gideon, as usual, is terribly misleading at best.

        There are limits on immigration through marriage. I think you'll find that's true to varying extents in any country, though in light of Israel's security needs it's much tougher there. As for Arabs and Jews who are both Israeli - the situation Gideon allows you to think he's describing - there is no ban whatsoever on cohabitation. It's probably a bureacratic nightmare to get married, but that ironically because multicultural Israel allows for both Jewish and Sharia courts to oversee marriage and leaves a gap for secular or mixed marriages. Most couples make do just fine by marrying in Cypres, I think.

        You should ask Yaakov rather than me about that. I recall that there had been some suicide bombings using marriage as a pretext to enter the country, and I'm sure he'd know more about that as well.

        • 3 votes
        #3.33 - Sat Mar 3, 2007 12:53 AM EST
        Reply
        Andriy Bilokonsky

        Great article. It helps that you are there and see whats going on first hand. Keep writing stuff, we need your voice.

        • 8 votes
        Reply#4 - Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:30 PM EST
        Yaakov

        Thanks Andriy

        • 3 votes
        #4.1 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:55 AM EST
        Reply
        Henry VII

        Good article. Still, it comes down to whether one wants security or convenience. I know that I am in the minority when I say that I would prefer convenience. How many terrorist attacks have these checkpoints stopped? Has the successful number of attacks gone down since they were put in place? These are the kinds of questions that need to be answered.

        • 1 vote
        Reply#5 - Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:41 PM EST
        Yaakov

        How many terrorist attacks have these checkpoints stopped?

        Many. Every Day. They save Israeli lives from direct attacks. Plain and Simple.

        Has the successful number of attacks gone down since they were put in place?

        Yes. Even more than that - there seems to be a direct correlation between the openness of the checkpoints and the number of attacks against Israelis.

        • 4 votes
        #5.1 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:58 AM EST
        cleareyes

        Yaakov,
        I'm not saying I don't believe you, I've just never come across any information on numbers of terrorists caught from checkpoints (per day, per month ect..).
        Would you have any information on that?

        thanks

        • 1 vote
        #5.2 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:23 PM EST
        Yaakov

        @cleareyes - Although some research may exist that tracks the number of checkpoints and severity of searches with the incidence of terrorist incidents towards Israelis and the number of incidents prevented, I do not know of it. I base my statements on lots of anecdotal evidence, my personal observations of following the news in Israel from multiple sources very closely over the past decade, having lived here for a couple of years immediately before and in the beginning of the previous intifada, living here right now and talking with people, listening to the radio, using my eyes and ears. More than that I cannot give you. Sorry.

        (And as a side point, very often when terrorists are caught, it may be announced in Hebrew on Israeli radio, it may appear on some of the more right-wing news sites, but it will not reach the main stream media. For example, last week there were four attempted kidnappings by Arabs of Jews in the West Bank. You wont find this in any of the main stream media because Arabs kidnapping settlers doesn't sell newspapers. But it still happened, and these Jews are alive right now because of the checkpoints and army presence on the roads of Judea and Samaria.)

        • 3 votes
        #5.3 - Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:19 AM EST
        Reply
        david singer

        Carter is talking nonsense. Israel's population is 20% Arab. Arabic is an official language of Israel and all street and road signs are in both Hebrew and Arabic. Arabs are members of Parliament and occupy judicial positions. An Arab is a Cabinet Minister.

        How many Jews live in Saudi Arabia, Jordan or Gaza? Are Jews allowed to own land in these places? Apatheid is actively practised in these places and people like Carter remain silent.

        The road blocks serve to stop terrorists entering Israel. Stop the terrorism and the road blocks will soon come down.

        • 7 votes
        Reply#6 - Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:11 PM EST
        Arghawon

        Do you know any Arab Israelis? Do you know the 'second class citizenship' they hold in Israel?

        As for the 'stop the terrorism' bs, when will we stop arguing about what came first, the chicken or the egg (Palestinian Terrorism vs Israeli Terrorism) and finally find a solution for this foresaken part of the world???

        • 2 votes
        #6.1 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:04 AM EST
        david singer

        What you call "second class citizenship" would be the envy of the oppressed masses throughout the Arabian peninsula who are ruled by dictators and despots.

        There is a ready solution - divide the West Bank and Gaza between Israel, Jordan and Egypt. Another tiny state between Israel, Jordan and Egypt has always and will forever be a non-starter.

        The Arabs already have 23 States. How many more do they need?

        • 3 votes
        #6.2 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:55 AM EST
        Benno Hansen

        Israel's population is 20% Arab. Arabic is... yada yada yada

        Thought experiment: Saudi Arabia sinks into the ocean. UN decides to hand the Saudis two thirds of your country. They call it New Saudi or something like that. After a while the Saudis have themselves a bit more land for their convenience. But New Saudi's population is whatever% your ethnicity. Your language is an official language and your people can vote. Satisfied? What's the problem? After all peoples of your ethnicity already occupy hundreds of states. Hope you now see your above statement was racist.

        • 1 vote
        #6.3 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:02 AM EST
        david singer

        Benno what States do people of my ethnicity occupy where they are the majority of the population.How many States do people of your ethnicity occupy where they are the majority of the population.

        Your thought experiment would not get 5/100 in a science exam. Can you imagine New Saudi Arabia allowing one Jew to live in its territory? It doesn't now, so why would you expect a change of heart?

        The Jews were given the right to return to Palestine by the League of Nations to reconstitute the Jewish National Home. The operative word is "reconstitute" i.e to reclaim their ancient land from which they had been ethnically cleansed by Roman and Arab invaders.

        Palestine is only as large as a postage stamp and was 0.001% of the land mass given to the Arabs by France and Britain for Arab self determination at the same time. From this area 23 Arab States have been created.

        One of those States is Jordan which is 77% of Palestine.

        The Arabs have begrudged and still begrudge the Jews their place in the sun in their own tiny country from which they were kicked out and it appears you do so as well.

        If you eat too much of the apple pie you end up with indigestion.

        • 2 votes
        #6.4 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:04 AM EST
        Dennis M Wright

        Benno re thought experiment - Israel is an established recognised State and the UN wouldn't hand a chunk of it to someone else over the head of that State's government. That is not the situation that Palestine was in at the time Israel was born. It was a British controlled mandate that had a predominantly arab population but many Jews and the proposal on the table was for a modest part of the available territory. Israel has only ended up the size it is because the arabs wouldn't accept Israel in any part of it and kept attacking.

        AND EVEN if the UN did hand 2/3 of Israel to the Saudis I do not believe Jewish parents would send their children into arab markets with explosives strapped to them then celebrate their deaths as martyrs. I don't think schools would teach Jewish children to hate arabs from an early age. I don't think Jewish refugees would prefer to live in the sickening squalor of refugee camps than be rehoused just to claim political brownie points, and I don't think Jewish supporters world wide would stand back and let them suffer for political reasons.

        • 5 votes
        #6.5 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:01 AM EST
        Benno Hansen

        david singer: The operative word is "reconstitute" i.e to reclaim their ancient land from which they had been ethnically cleansed by Roman and Arab invaders.

        Wrong.

        Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites, who extensively mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamian and Anatolian peoples in ancient times. Thus, Palestinian-Jewish rivalry is based in cultural and religious, but not in genetic, differences. The relatively close relatedness of both Jews and Palestinians to western Mediterranean populations reflects the continuous circum-Mediterranean cultural and gene flow that have occurred in prehistoric and historic times. This flow overtly contradicts the demic diffusion model of western Mediterranean populations substitution by agriculturalists coming from the Middle East in the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition.

        - Quote Illegal knowledge: Palestinians and Jews are relatives. Now, I don't know if culturally or genetically based ethnic cleansing is worst. A lot of that stuff has obviously happened throughout time and many have 'historical guilt'.

        Dennis M Wright: Israel has only ended up the size it is because the arabs wouldn't accept Israel in any part of it and kept attacking.

        Wrong.

        as the state of Israel came into being, occurred one of the largest forced migrations in modern history. Around a million Palestinians were expelled from their homes at gunpoint, thousands of civilians were massacred and hundreds of Palestinian villages were deliberately destroyed. Though the truth about the mass expulsion has been systematically distorted and suppressed, had it taken place in the 21st century it could only have been called 'ethnic cleansing.'

        - Quote Rewriting Israel's Story. Furthermore, Israel is now dependent on natural resources taken from occupied territory. See Israel controls 80% of Palestinian water or Israel controls Palestinian water resources - and that's just on water.

        Anything else?

        • 2 votes
        #6.6 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:58 AM EST
        david singer

        Benno you ask - "anything else?" Well I would like you to refute each of my statements and not try to attempt doing so with only one.

        Does your silence indicate that you accept the correctness of the others?

        Now you say the Palestinians are descended from the Canaanites.

        Why then does the PLO Covenant say that Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people, that it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation? Canaanites are excluded as are Jews.

        I hope that you might even concede the Arabs only conquered and occupied Palestine in the 7th Century AD.

        I suppose you will now be calling for a Canaanite State in Palestine and telling those 23 Arab States where to get off.

        Once again I would only give you 1/100 in a history exam and that 1 mark would be for fiction in presentation.

        • 2 votes
        #6.7 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:36 PM EST
        Reply
        Gideon Polya

        The first sentence unintentionally no doubt provides an out of context verity:

        "Israel(i) as the evil, apartheid, hate-driven society that seeks to oppress the peace-loving Muslims who "just want to get along"".

        Apartheid in South Africa involved gross human rights violations (Israeli equivalents in parentheses):

        1. race-based ethnocracy (ditto Israel);

        2. Indigenous Africans excluded from democracy (Jewish Israelis rule all of the Holy Land);

        3. non-Europeans forcibly expelled from their land (Palestinians ditto; 6 million refugees; 4 million registereed with the UN; 80,000 flee each year; 85% of Christian Palestinians ethnically cleansed);

        4. non-Europeans forcibly confined to Bantustans or non-white urban areas (Palestinians ditto);

        5. non-European movement highly constrained (ditto Israel in the OPT);

        6. non-Europeans racially identified by ID (compulsory ID identifying non-Jewish Palestinians; akin to Nazi insistence on racial ID of Jews etc);

        7. profoundly offensive constraints on inter-marriage (Israeli marriage to Palestinians effectively prohibited because co-habitation in Israel prohibited - utterly disgusting and unforgivably offensive racist laws in both cases);

        8. horrendous differential deaths (post-invasion excess deaths - avoidable deaths, deaths that did not have to happen - in the Occupied Palestinian Territory total 0.3 million);

        9. horrendous differential infant deaths (the post-invasion under-5 infant deaths in the OPT total 0.2 million; "annual under-5 infant death rate" 0.47% in the OPT as compared to 0.1% in Israel- evidence of gross violation of Article 38, Geneva Convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war: link ; "5. Children under fifteen years, pregnant women and mothers of children under seven years shall benefit by any preferential treatment to the same extent as the nationals of the State concerned.";

        10. gross violation of the UN Charter and Geneva, Rights of the Child, Genocide and Universal Human Rights Conventions (ditto Israel);

        11. possession of nuclear weapons (with Israeli help) to back Apartheid obscenity (ditto Israel);

        12. use of military and paramilitayr police to attack non-European civilians (ditto Israel, on-going in Gaza; Nablus today);

        13. huge violence against neighbouring African states ( 1950-2005 excess deaths in neighbouring countries partically or completely occupied by Israel total 24 million; 1950-2005 excess deaths in countires actually militarily attacked by Israel total 43 million; for UN source data see:link ).

        14. illegal occupation of Namibia (illegal Israeli occupation of part of Syria and all of the OPT including the Old City of Jerusalem - an abscene and continuing violation of the Torah, and specifically of the Decalogue; abusive occupation of part or all of all of its neighbours over the last half century).

        Of course the defence offered in both cases (the Israelis today and the evil, often explicitly Nazi-linked Apartheid South Africans) was "security" and "exclusivity rights" (racism, ethnocracy, theocracy) of a European-origin colonial group over-riding the rights of non-European indigenous people (Apartheid South Africa) and of European-dominated Jewish Israeli colonists over-riding the rights of non-European indigenous people, the Indigenous Palestinians (Israel).

        This "security" issue is nonsense when the actual statistics are examined (link ):

        Using publicly avialable data we can calculate average "annual homicide rate/million" for Israelis in the post-September 2000 period as 30.7 ( Israelis by Palestinians), 14.1 (Israelis by Israelis) and 44.8 (in total; as compared to 53.7 for the US).

        The "annual "annual homicide rate/million" for Palestinians in this period is 261.2 (Palestinians by Israelis), 11.2 (Palestinians by Palestinians) and 272.4 (in total; as compared to 53.7 for the US and 44.8 for Israel).

        Translating this into "average annual homicides" we can estimate 196.5 (Israelis by Palestinians; 68.5% of total Israeli Victims), 90.2 (Israelis by Israelis; 31.5%) and 286.7 (in total); 914.2 (Palestinians by Israelis; 95.9% of total Palestinian Victims), 39.2 (Palestinians by Palestinians; 4.1%) and 953.4 (in total).

        We can then see that of the "average annual homicides" totaling 1240.1 in the Holy Land, from the perspective of VICTIMS 286.7 (23.1%) have been OF Israelis and 953.4 (76.9%) OF Palestinians – however in relation to PERPETRATORS, 1004.4 (81.0%) have been BY Israelis and 235.7 (19.0%) have been BY Palestinians.

        The current "annual murder rate" in South Africa (where there are many Jews; many South African Jews had an excellent record of opposing racism and Apartheid) is a shocking 496 per million (10 times greater than in the US - where there are many Jews - or in Israel).

        However any Jew - or indeed anyone - seriously advocating Israeli-style abuses in contemporary South Africa or the US today (e.g. disenfranchisement, Bantustan imprisonment, compulsory race-based ID, no intermarriage cohabitation, military-style attacks on African or African-American areas) would be prosecuted for racism, conspiracy and incitement (also criminal offences in the UK).

        • 5 votes
        Reply#7 - Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:49 PM EST
        omaha jimDeleted
        Reply
        dreaming

        Well, it's a rhetorical question I'm sure but... yes actually that is what apartheid looks like.

        When the government in South Africa instituted security crackdowns, checkpoints, and mandatory ID's, etcetera, the excuse was frequently that dissidents were blowing up things or were a threat to security. And as a matter of fact, it was accurate, there were people running around causing trouble, angry at being oppressed. So the local government oppressed them some more, and then there were more people causing trouble. Which caused more oppression.

        Stop me when you get where I'm going with this.

        Great article Yaakov, there is a good reason no one refutes your statements, and that reason is that you are right.

        I wasn't going to bother to respond, but since my silence was being interpreted in an interesting way I thought I'd chime in.

        Don't get me wrong, I don't think Israeli's are a bunch of evil racists acting out of hate. But I'm being very serious when I say, this is EXACTLY what apartheid looks like. The arguments your using now, were used back then too.

        • 3 votes
        Reply#8 - Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:12 PM EST
        Yaakov

        Thanks for the thoughtful comment.

        Well, it's a rhetorical question I'm sure

        Yeah, I was just trying to play off the title of Keld's seed (same as mine, but without the "???")

        Don't get me wrong, I don't think Israeli's are a bunch of evil racists acting out of hate.

        And I think that this is the big difference.

        this is EXACTLY what apartheid looks like

        Correction: this may be exactly what one part of apartheid looked like. But I would disagree with the notion that the main features of apartheid as it was practiced in South Africe (based on racism and hatred, forcibly relocating people to "townships", not allowing any blacks to travel around, etc) are not present here. There are hundreds of thousands is Arabs who are Israeli citizens, who serve in the Knesset and the Supreme Court and are allowed the same rights as other Israelis. That "Palestinians" who live in Judea and Samaria have to go through checkpoints is a consequence of the security situation. It was not always so and does not have to be so. The place where I live (Kochav Yaakov) is surrounded by Arab villages and other Israeli settlements. From my porch I can see Kalandia and Ramallah. From another point in my town, I can see Ramallah and two different suburbs, two Arab villages and three Israeli settlements. This is not a situation where Arabs are being kept inside "townships" or other similar locations. Back before the "peace movement" began, people actually got along here. In order to get to where I live, Jews commuted through Ramallah every day. They went to Ramallah to shop go to the market. Without fear. Since the "peace" has started, things have become much more dangerous for Jews here. It is in reaction to this that the checkpoints exist. When this is no longer a factor, the checkpoints will go away. Though they may be outwardly similar to one aspect of the apartheid in South Africa, in many other significant ways, the situation here is very very different.

        • 5 votes
        #8.1 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:17 AM EST
        Reply
        Senior

        It is obvious that there are clear differences between the situation in South Africa when it was ruled by the white racists and the situation in Israel. All the security measures wouldn't exist in Israel if no Palestinian tried to carry out a suicide bombing, no Palestinian aimed rockets at Israel, no Palestinian refused to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and all Palestinians chose peace over war.

        • 4 votes
        Reply#9 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:03 PM EST
        Oluseye

        I agree that without Palestinians doing as you describe things would be different. That's exactly one half of the issue though.

        I want to know how many Israelis accept Palestine's right to exist and not at Israel's whims, the right of Arab Palestinian civilians not to become casulaties of Israeli military action, support peace over war and renounce the extreme militarism of its political establishment as demonstrated in the daft destruction of Lebanon last Summer.

        • 1 vote
        #9.1 - Fri Mar 2, 2007 7:23 PM EST
        ignoblus

        Have you stopped beating your wife, Oluseye?

        Why would you think anything less than the vast majority of Israelis are concerned with anything other than security?

        • 2 votes
        #9.2 - Sat Mar 3, 2007 1:01 AM EST
        Reply
        upright ape

        Calling something apartheid is a good way to sell books; creating a false dichotomy is a good way to stir up some controversy.

        It's so amazing to me how far this issue is disconnected from reality. There's so little debate about what can be done to bring about a stable region, so much empty ideological posturing.

        There must be some steps Palestinian leadership can take to end the embargo. And I mean steps beyond asking them to recognize Israel straightaway. Surely it is possible for incremental steps towards peace to be taken once all parties are at the table.

        The current situation of Hamas intransigence and Western embargoes is unacceptable.

        • 4 votes
        Reply#10 - Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:35 PM EST
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