A Response to the "Purification of Palestinian Refugee Camps" Video

Total Death Toll in 2002: 385

[edit] January (death toll: 21)

* January 9: Four Israeli soldiers are killed when two Hamas militants wearing Palestinian police uniforms attacked an IDF post near the Gaza Strip with grenades and assault rifles. The soldiers managed to kill one of the attackers. [1]
* January 10-11: The IDF demolished 59 houses and damaged another 200 in Rafah refugee camp. Over six hundred Palestinians are made homeless. [2], [3]
* January 14: The IDF assassinated Raed al-Karmi, head of al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades in Tulkarem. An Israeli was killed near Shavei Shomron by Palestinian gunmen. [4][5]
* January 15: An Israeli woman shot dead in Jerusalem; a man (an American citizen living in Israel) kidnapped into Nablus and shot dead there.
* January 16: An Arab resident of East Jerusalem killed while driving in a car with Israeli license plates near Jenin.
* January 17: An armed gunman killed six and wounded 33 in a Bat Mitzvah celebration in Hadera. The al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack. [6]
* January 18: An Israeli F-16 jet fighter destroyed the Palestinian Authority's main police headquarters in Tulkarem. One policeman was killed and 40 wounded.
* January 21: A 19-year-old Palestinian was killed and seven wounded in fighting with Israeli forces in the West Bank city of Tulkarem. [7]
* January 22: Two women killed by a Fatah (Al-Aqsa Brigades) gunman in Jerusalem
* January 25: 20 people are injured in a suicide bombing in the Old Bus Station of Tel-Aviv.
* January 27: A suicide bombing attack in Jerusalem by Fatah. An elderly Israeli was killed and 172 wounded. The attack marked the first time a female suicide bomber was used.

[edit] February (death toll: 50)

* February 6: An Israeli woman, her 11 year-old daughter and a soldier guarding them killed in a gun attack in the Israeli village of Hamra. Both Fatah and Hamas claimed responsibility.
* February 8: An Israeli woman stabbed to death by several Palestinian young men while walking in a park in Jerusalem.
* February 9: An elderly woman shot and killed while driving in the northern West Bank.
* February 10: Two female Israeli soldiers killed in a shooting attack in a civilian bakery near a military base in Be'er Sheva. 4 people are injured. Hamas claimed responsibility.
* February 16: Two young girls killed in a suicide bombing at a pizzeria in the northern West Bank. A third girl, wounded in the attack, died several days later. The PFLP claimed responsibility.
* February 18: An Israeli-Arab policeman killed by a suicide bomber. Fatah (Al-Aqsa) claims responsibility. A settler woman and two soldiers trying to assist her killed in a combined shooting and bombing in Gaza. Fatah (Al-Aqsa) claims responsibility.
* February 19: Palestinian guerillas stormed an army checkpoint at Ein Ariq near Ramallah killing six Israeli soldiers. The Al-Aqsa Brigade and Hamas claimed joint responsibility. [8]
* February 20: In retaliation of the raid February 19, Israeli warplanes and helicopter gunships attacked structures belonging to the Palestinian Authority. Four Palestinians were killed in a missile attack at the PA's compound in Gaza, seven in Israeli shelling of two Palestinian police checkpoints near Nablus, three in a firefight outside Balata refugee camp, one in an airstrike on Ramallah and one in a firefight near Ramallah. In total, 16 Palestinians was killed. [9]
* February 22: An Israeli civilian was killed by gunmen in a drive-by shooting on the Atarot-Givat Ze'ev road north of Jerusalem, on his way home from his workplace.
* February 25: Two Israelis killed in a shooting attack between Tekoa and Nokdim, south of Bethlehem. One of the victims' pregnant daughter was injured. An Israeli policewoman is killed when a gunman opened fire at a bus stop in the Neve Ya'akov residential neighborhood in northern Jerusalem.
* February 26: A 15 year old girl, wielding a knife, was shot and killed at an Israeli checkpoint near Tulkarm in what seems to have been a failed attack at that checkpoint. [10]
* February 27: An Israeli is shot and killed by one of his Palestinian employees in a factory in the Atarot industrial area, north of Jerusalem.
* February 28: More than 100 Palestinians was wounded and two killed as the Israel army stormed the Balata refugee camp. In Jenin, six Palestinian policemen was shot dead as tanks entered the camp.

[edit] March (death toll: 134)

* March 2: The bullet-ridden body of a Jerusalem police detective was discovered next to his trail motorcycle, near the Mar Saba Monastery in the Judean Desert. 11 people killed in a suicide bombing near a yeshiva in the Haredi Beit Yisrael neighborhood in the center of Jerusalem.
* March 3: 10 Israelis, soldiers and civilians, are killed by a Palestinian sniper in an IDF road block near Ofra, in Samaria (northern West Bank).
* March 4: Six Palestinians, five of them children, were killed in Ramallah as a tank shelled a pickup truck and another vehicle belonging to a suspected Hamas militant. In Jenin, six more Palestinains were killed during a fire exchange with Israeli soldiers. In Rafah refugee camp, two Palestinian gunmen and one civilian was killed and three buildings demolished. [11]
* March 5: Three people killed in Tel-Aviv when a Palestinian gunman opened fire on two adjacent restaurants. An Israeli woman was killed in shooting attack on the Bethlehem bypass "tunnel" road, south of Jerusalem, on her way to work. Her husband was injured. An 85-year-old Israeli was killed when a suicide bomber exploded in an Egged No. 823 bus as it entered the Afula central bus station.
* March 7: Five Israeli teenagers were killed and 23 injured when a Palestinian gunman penetrated the pre-military training academy in the Gush Katif settlement of Atzmona. Hamas gunmen entered the southern Gush Katif community, opening fire and throwing hand grenades at the school and nearby houses.
* March 9: A 9-month-old baby and a man were killed when two Palestinians opened fire and threw grenades at cars and pedestrians in the coastal city of Netanya, close to the city's boardwalk and hotels. 11 people killed and 54 others wounded when a suicide bomber exploded in the crowded Cafe Moment in the center of Jerusalem.
* March 12: One Israeli killed and another wounded in a shooting attack at the Kiryat Sefer checkpoint, east of Modi'in. Six people (three men and three women, including a teenager) killed when two gunmen opened fire from an ambush on Israeli vehicles traveling between Shlomi and Kibbutz Metzuba near the northern border with Lebanon.
* March 17: An 18-year-old girl was killed and 16 people were injured when a gunman opened fire on passersby in the center of Kfar Sava.
* March 20: Seven Israelis killed in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus No. 823 traveling from Tel Aviv to Nazareth, near Afula.
* March 21: Three people killed and 86 injured when a suicide bomber detonated a bomb, packed with metal spikes and nails, in the center of a crowd of shoppers on King George Street in the center of Jerusalem.
* March 24: Esther Kleinman, 23 years old, of N'vei Tzuf was shot and killed on the Abud Bypass Road in the Shomron en route to work as a kindergarten teacher in the community of Ofrah. Avi Sabag, 24 years old, of Otniel was shot to dead by gunmen as he was returning home from shopping for Passover in Jerusalem. He was driving in the Hevron Hills area near his home community.
* March 27: The Passover Massacre: 30 Israelis were killed and over 140 wounded when a suicide bomber exploded in the crowded dining room of the Park Hotel in Netanya.
* March 28: Four family members killed in Elon Moreh, when a Palestinian gunman infiltrated the hilltop community near Nablus, burst into their home, and shot them.
* March 29: Two elderly men were stabbed to death while on their way to the synagogue for morning prayers, when a Palestinian gunman infiltrated the Neztarim settlement in the Gaza Strip.
* March 30: Two people killed when a female suicide bomber blew herself up in the Kiryat Yovel supermarket in Jerusalem. Some 30 people were injured in a suicide bombing in a cafe in southern Tel-Aviv. One of the victims, a 36-year-old woman, died of her wounds five days later.
* March 31: 15 people killed in a suicide bombing in Haifa, in the Matza restaurant of the gas station near the "Grand Canyon" shopping mall.

[edit] April (death toll: 30) (excluding Jenin fatalities)

* April 1: A 19-year-old police volunteer was killed in Jerusalem, when a Palestinian suicide bomber driving toward the city center blew himself up after being stopped at a roadblock. The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
* April 10: Eight people killed and 22 wounded in a suicide bombing on Egged bus #960, en route from Haifa to Jerusalem, which exploded near Kibbutz Yagur, east of Haifa.
* April 12: Seven people killed by a woman suicide bomber who detonated a powerful charge at a bus stop on Jaffa road next to the entrance to Jerusalem's Mahane Yehuda open-air market. Another 104 people were injured in the blast, among them nine Arabs. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
* April 17: Tel Aviv resident Meir Franco, 48, was murdered by gunman in Sinai.
* April 27: Four people, including a 5-year-old girl, killed when gunmen dressed in IDF uniforms and combat gear cut through the settlement's defensive perimeter fence and entered Adora, west of Hebron. The gunmen entered several homes, firing on people in their bedrooms.
* April 29: Israeli forces invaded the West Bank town of Hebron and killed nine Palestinians. In the Church of Nativity in Bethlehem, a Palestinian gunmen was shot dead by Israeli snipers. [12]
* From April 03 to April 12: 52 Palestinians, 22 of them civilians and 23 Israeli soldiers were confirmed killed in Jenin. [13]

[edit] May (death toll: 30)

* May 7: 15 people killed and 55 wounded when a suicide bomber detonated a powerful charge in a game club located on the 3rd floor of a building in Rishon LeZion, causing part of the building to collapse. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
* May 12: An Israeli settler of Pe'at Sadeh in the southern Gaza Strip was shot and killed by a Palestinian laborer, when he came to pick him up at a checkpoint.
* May 19: Three Israelis killed when a suicide bomber blew himself up in a crowded section of Netanya's open-air market.
* May 21: One Israeli injured when a bomb explodes Kehilat Katzuvitch Street in northern Tel Aviv.
* May 22: Two people (one of them a teenager) are killed in suicide bombing in the heart of Rishon LeZion.
* May 27: A woman and her infant granddaughter, aged 14 months, of Petah Tikva were killed when a suicide bomber detonated himself near an ice cream parlor outside a shopping mall.
* May 28: Two Israelis were killed when shots were fired at the car in which they were traveling south on the Ramallah bypass road. Three yeshiva high school students killed in Itamar, southeast of Nablus, when a Palestinian gunman infiltrated the community and opened fire on the teenagers.
* May 29: Two Palestinians were killed by Israeli troops. On in the southern Gaza Strip in Khan Yunis and one gunman belonging to Islamic Jihad in Jenin on the West Bank. Additionally, four homes were blown up and 20 damaged in Rafah. [14]

[edit] June (death toll: 54)

* June 5: 17 people killed when a car packed with a large quantity of explosives struck Egged bus No. 830 traveling from Tel-Aviv to Tiberias at the Megiddo junction near Afula. The car exploded near the gasoline tank of the bus, causing it to burst into flames. Most of the casualties were soldiers who were on their way to their bases. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
* June 6: 18-year-old Israeli student died of gunshot wounds to the chest sustained in a shooting attack near Ofra, north of Ramallah, when Palestinian gunmen opened fire in an ambush.
* June 8: Three Israelis, including a pregnant woman, were shot dead when gunmen infiltrated the community of Carmei Tzur south of Bethlehem.
* June 8: A terrorist infiltrated into the Jordan Valley community of Mechora. A woman was murdered and her husband, 30, wounded.
* June 11: A 14-year-old girl was killed when a Palestinian suicide bomber set off a relatively small pipe bomb at a shwarma restaurant in Herzliya.
* June 18: 19 people killed and 74 wounded in a suicide bombing at the Patt junction in Egged bus no. 32A traveling from Gilo to the center of Jerusalem. The bomber boarded the bus at the stop in Beit Safafa, an Arab neighborhood opposite Gilo, and almost immediately detonated the large bomb which he carried in a bag stuffed with ball bearings. The blast destroyed the front half of the bus, packed with people on their way to work and schoolchildren.
* June 19: Seven people, including a 5-year-old girl and her grandmother, were killed when a suicide bomber blew himself up at a crowded bus stop and hitchhiking post at the French Hill intersection in northern Jerusalem.
* June 20: Five people, including a mother and three of her sons, were murdered when a gunman entered their home in Itamar, south of Nablus, and opened fire.

[edit] July (death toll: 29)

* July 16: Nine people (two men, six women, and an infant child) were killed in an attack on Dan bus no. 189 traveling from Bnei Brak to Emmanuel in Samaria. Two 20-kilo bombs were set off about 200 meters from the town's entrance, damaging the bus's front tires and forcing it off the road. The explosion damaged the bus doors, trapping the passengers inside. The militants then started to shoot at the bus, firing through the unprotected roof and throwing grenades through the narrow upper windows, which are not armored.
* July 17: Five people were killed and about 40 injured in a double suicide bombing on Neve Sha'anan Street near the old central bus station in Tel Aviv. The bombs, which were strapped to the waists of the bombers, contained nails and metal shards.
* July 25: A 43-year-old Rabbi was killed and another civilian injured in a shooting attack near the West Bank community of Alei Zahav, west of Ariel.
* July 26: A couple and their 9-year-old son were killed in a shooting attack south of Hebron. Two of their other children were injured.
* July 30: Two brothers were shot and killed when their truck came under fire in the West Bank village of Jama'in, near Ariel, apparently while selling diesel oil to a cement factory in the village.
* July 31: Nine people, some of them American students, were killed when a bomb exploded in the Frank Sinatra cafeteria on the Hebrew University Mt. Scopus campus in Jerusalem.

[edit] August (death toll: 15)

* August 1: A 27-year old Israeli man was found shot in the head at point-blank range and bound, west of Tulkarem, near the Green Line.
* August 4: Nine people were killed in the suicide bombing of Egged bus No. 361 traveling from Haifa to Safed at the Meron junction in northern Israel. The blast blew off the roof of the bus, which then burst into flames, killing or wounding nearly everyone inside. A 34-year-old Israeli and a 52-year-old Palestinian were killed when a Palestinian gunman opened fire with a pistol near the Damascus Gate of Jerusalem's Old City.
* August 5: A young Israeli couple were killed when gunmen opened fire on their car as they were traveling on the Ramallah-Nablus road near Eli in Samaria. One of their children was wounded in the attack.
* August 10: A 31-year-old woman was killed and her husband seriously wounded when a Palestinian gunman infiltrated Moshav Mechora in the Jordan Valley, and opened fire outside their home.

[edit] September (death toll: 10)

* September 18: The charred body of a 67-year old Israeli construction contractor was found near el-Azzariya, a Palestinian village near Ma'ale Adummim, east of Jerusalem. A 36-year-old Israeli was killed when gunmen opened fire on his car near Mevo Dotan, north of Jenin in the West Bank. An Israeli policeman was killed and three people were wounded in a suicide bombing at a bus stop at the Umm al Fahm junction.
* September 19: Six people were killed when a suicide bomber detonated a bomb in Dan bus No. 4 on Allenby Street, opposite the Great Synagogue in Tel-Aviv. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
* September 23: A 48-year-old man was killed and three of his children wounded, one seriously, in a shooting attack near the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron during the Sukkot festival.

[edit] October (death toll: 22)

* October 8: A 51-year-old Israeli was critically wounded in an ambush shooting south of Hebron. He died of his wounds the following day. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
* October 10: A 71-year-old woman was killed and about 30 people were wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up while trying to board Dan bus No. 87 across from Bar-Ilan University on the Geha highway (Route 4) in central Israel.
* October 21: 14 persons were killed when a bus was blown up in a suicide attack by a bomber driving an explosives-laden jeep near the Karkur junction.
* October 27: Three IDF soldiers killed in a suicide bombing at the Sonol gas station at the entrance to Ariel in Samaria while trying to prevent the bomber from detonating the bomb. About 20 people were wounded in the bombing.
* October 29: A woman and two 14-year-old girls were shot dead by a Palestinian gunman who infiltrated the settlement of Hermesh, north of Tulkarm, in Samaria. A soldier and a resident were wounded in the assault.

[edit] November (death toll: 51)

* November 4: Two persons killed when a Palestinian suicide bomber detonated himself at a Kfar Sava shopping mall.
* November 6: Two Israeli farmers were shot to dead by a Palestinian gunman posing as a worker near Pe'at Sadeh in the southern Gaza Strip.
* November 10: Five people, including a mother and her 4- and 5-year-old children, were shot and killed by a gunman who infiltrated Kibbutz Metzer, located east of Hadera near the Green Line. The gunman shot the mother and children as they hugged one another.
* November 15: 12 people killed -- nine soldiers and three civilians from the Kiryat Arba emergency response team -- and 15 wounded in Hebron when Palestinian militants opened fire and threw grenades at a group of Jewish worshipers and their guards as they were walking home from Sabbath Eve prayers at the Cave of the Patriarchs.
* November 21: 11 people killed and about 50 wounded in a suicide bombing on a No. 20 Egged bus in the Kiryat Menahem neighborhood of Jerusalem. Most of the victims were high-school students on their way to school.
* November 28: Kenyan hotel bombing: Three Israelis, including two brothers, and 10 Kenyans killed when a car bomb exploded in the lobby of the Israeli-owned beachfront Paradise Hotel, frequented almost exclusively by Israeli tourists near Mombasa in Kenya. 21 Israelis and 60 Kenyans were wounded in the attack. Six Israelis were killed when two gunmen opened fire and threw grenades at the Likud polling station in Bet She'an, where party members were casting their votes in the Likud primary.

[edit] December (death toll: 14)

* December 20: A 40-year-old rabbi was shot and killed on the Kissufim corridor road (in the Gaza Strip) while driving with his wife and six children to attend a pre-wedding Sabbath celebration in Afula. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
* December 26: In Nablus, Israeli troops killed two Palestinians. One a 15 year old boy, and the other while he opened fire against a patrol. In Tulkarem, one man was killed when he tried to escape arrest. According to Palestinian and Israeli sources he was a member of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. In Ramallah three Palestinians, one of them a Hamas member, were killed by Israeli troops in separate incidents. In the West Bank village of Qabatiya, Hamza Abu Roub, a top Islamic Jihad leader, was killed while resisting arrest. Four IDF soldiers were wounded in the incident. Thereafter Abu Roub's house was blown up. In the Gaza Strip Israeli troops killed two Hamas members which were attempting an attack on the Netzarim settlement. [15]
* December 27: Four yeshiva students were killed in Otniel while working in the yeshiva kitchen, serving the Shabbat meal to some 100 students in the adjacent dining room. Two gunmen infiltrated the settlement, entered the yeshiva building through the kitchen service door, and shot dead the four unarmed students.

According to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs website, 2001/2002 were the worst years for Israeli casualties of terror. Like it or not, the separation fence has thwarted many attacks since.

Here's an interesting perspective on unexpected benefits of the fence.

Firstly Yaakov, this was a good article. I often find your articles one-sided and not constructive, but this one seemed quite restrained and balanced to me.

However, I have a view similar to spiffie. I can't condone the violation of human rights under any circumstances. These people are being forced by the circumstances around them to live in a refugee camp. They have a right to live in peace as long as they are not personally promoting violence.

I believe your description of the fear and desperation of the times, and it does help to set a broader context, but it does not accord with the demeanor of the soldiers. They looked more like they were on holiday having a good time ... and it doesn't take an hour to search an ambulance.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they looked like they were on holiday. I'll freely acknowledge that hard times lead to hard decisions, that it's difficult to hold support for the best principles when times are difficult. But it's not when times are easy that it's most important to remain committed to human rights; it's easy to be committed when times are easy.

On the one hand, it's easy for me to be critical when I'm safely away in the US, when I'm not under constant threat. I don't know that I would be so committed if I were in Israel, living through these times. I don't know, but I would hope that I would. My criticism isn't that there's anything special about these soldiers, but that there isn't anything special about the tendencies of humans to do things they wouldn't otherwise do when circumstances are extraordinary. But even still, we (all of us everywhere) should do our best to do better.

Abu Ghraib is not excusable. Guantanamo isn't excusable. The examples I cited above aren't excusable, circumstances notwithstanding. We all, all the nations of the world, have our own particular challenges to face, and learn to face better.

When the US but Japanese Americans in internment camps during WWII, it was an act of fear, of general punishment, and was not based on concrete evidence of wrongdoing, rather on racism and xenophobic tendencies in the US, that were brought to the fore by the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Attacking admittedly innocent families in their homes, killing innocent civilians, even accidentally, isn't an act of fear? Don't be silly, of course it's an act of fear. Fear is what enables such rationalizations to occur.

You state very simply that you are committed to human rights, but it is not so black and white in this situation. The Haraweh's have human rights. And so do Israeli's who are blown up in a cafe or a bus. Whose human rights are more important? Who does the IDF have a responsibility to defend.

Yes, it's not black and white. That's why I posted the second comment. I hoped it would clarify that I'm not trying to paint the IDF force as some kind of monsters in this whole thing. They didn't act in some inhuman way, their reaction was only too human. That's the whole point. We shouldn't accept such things just because we think they're inevitable, or because it's human "nature," or because it "always" happens, on both sides. We need to try to do better, and hopefully a reaction to this video was, is, and will be a commitment to try to avoid such outcomes in the future.

doubtful, it was starting in Bethlehem, as the soldiers said in the video, not exactly next door

And this is exactly the kind of short-sighted, myopic view of the situation that needs addressing. Why did the ambulance have to come from Bethlehem? A large part of the problem, as I understand it, is that current partitioning and security measures by the Israelis make emergency medical treatment for the Palestinians onerous to obtain. They can't ride in Israeli ambulances to Israeli hospitals for treatment, typically. They have to rely on Palestinian emergency services, which are difficult to obtain because of Israeli restrictions.

As strictly rational as it might be because of past transgressions by the Palestinians, withholding medical treatment from innocents strikes me as morally wrong. It's not a question with an easy answer, but it's a question that deserves an answer. It's a question that deserves to be brought up when things like this happen.

This is something I wrote in another thread recently. I think it might be worth throwing in here:

Not having seen the rest of it, would I be correct in speculating that one of the points is that some people empathize with the cause of the terrorists? I can see how that might be upsetting to a lot of people, but I do it. I don't condone their actions; that would be crossing the line, the line between understanding and support, between empathy and sympathy.

But the truth of the matter, as best we can determine from the information we have, is that the US really has supported dictators and totalitarian regimes over the past several decades. The US really has used its clout enrich domestic industrial companies to the detriment of native peoples around the globe. The US really has talked a strong walk on human rights and democratic reforms and empowerment while at the same promulgating (or allowing to be promulgated through inaction, corruption, and political expediency) policies that have every appearance of going against those ideals.

Sometimes this has been in the furtherance of important goals; is the world better because the US won the Cold War? Probably. Do I think it's likely that the US always operated with those interests foremost among its motives? Not on your life. A realistic view of human nature doesn't allow that, I think. Do I think that sometimes the US pursued its own interests, even mostly noble interests like the struggle in the Cold War, to the detriment of peoples who probably didn't give a crap? Yeah. Is it likely this generated bad feelings? Certainly.

So in one sense, I can understand the frustration that many people around the world feel towards the US. I can empathize with them. But I don't condone the attacks on the WTC or the US Cole or the US barracks bombing in Beirut in 1983. I don't condone these things any more than I condone the OKC bombing or terrorism in Northern Ireland. I don't condone violence as a reaction. But their feelings are real, and to deny that there are very real grievances against the behavior of the US only ignores what fuels a lot of the hatred arrayed against us.

If we want to win "hearts and minds," we have to be willing to accept substantive changes in our own behavior first.

And I see this as being similar. There is a whole history of conflict here, and we can't just pull out this single event from the context of the whole conflict. It's not just "the Palestinians started the second intifada" and thus "Israel retaliated having been attacked." That doesn't capture the totality of what's happening. The second intifada didn't just appear, wholly-formed, from a vacuum.

But no, neither do I support the second intifada as a necessary or appropriate response on the part of the Palestinians. I don't support suicide bombings against civilian targets. Not at all.

But there are real grievances that need to be addressed. I think Israel at the highest levels seems to have been doing more, and that's good. I'm encouraged. I think there's more that needs to be done by both sides.

You reap what you sow.

I don't think this is particularly helpful. This cannot be the only response, or no solution will ever be forthcoming.

Yaakov ... your explanation about the ambulance sounds plausible on the surface, but doesn't stand up to scrutiny at all. You mean to tell me these 'soldiers' were going around with the intention of blowing the doors off the houses of civilians with explosives and they hadn't organised medical evacuation in advance? What the hell does that tell you for God's sake?

Do you expect me to believe if one of these heroic soldiers had been seriously injured when the explosives went off that he would have lain bleeding for an hour until an amulance arrived from Bethlehem? Like hell.

You reap what you sow.

I didn't think you'd be able to keep up the balanced facade for long Yaakov.

Raskolnikov, your point about this not being an isolated incident is well made and it's an opinion shared by most objective observers of the middle east situation, including many Israelis who are often sickened by the actions of their own military. However I fear your opinion puts you at risk of being bombadilled from a great height.

An Israeli has been sentenced to seven years in jail for helping a Palestinian suicide bomber who killed one person and injured 55 in Tel Aviv in 2002.

Today BBC

When I hear people in Shul (your average Zionist) saying the government should just take the Palestinians, men, women and children, into the Sinai desert and slaughter them - that's not Yiddishkeit (Judaism) - does it remind you of anything?

Which shul is that? I've been to more than one orthodox shul in my life as well, and I've never heard of anyone (men or women) suggesting that Palestinians should be slaughtered. Maybe I missed it, being upstairs and behind the mechitzah.

A little honesty and putting your Judaism before your Zionism would be the best things for Yiddishkeit today instead of continuing to push a party-line which is simply immoral, unethical and in certain cases genocial and continues to shield Israel when it should be held accountable for it's acts.

I found Yaakov to be honest about what was going on. I think the best thing for Yiddishkeit today is perhaps an honest look at how we behave towards things we know are wrong. 100000 Jews, religious, secular, even haredi protesting in Rabin Square is a good indication of not letting things get pushed under the rug.

you can't have it both ways, if you do, your just being intellectually dishonest AND more importantly your not thinking about the Chilul Hashem (desecration of G-d's name) that is supposed to be among the greatest of importance to a Jew.

Maybe I'm an optimist; I know what's going on in Israel, and I know that there's no easy solution to try to stop both sides. What you seem to skim over is that there are two sides; Yaakov wasn't trying to have it both ways, he was responding to an entirely one-sided seed with the other side of the coin. I have friends in Ramallah, friends in "Al-Quds"/Yerushalayim. Nobody sees it in black and white; educated Palestinians among them.

To put it down to Chilul HaShem in one blanket statement is a bit irresponsible, no?

I think Mr. Mark Silberstone is an impostor. Brand new with only a comment here and to one of Keld's. hmph. And, btw, this is the 1st time I've called someone on posing.

I thought it was a bit odd, myself...

William Shakespeare was an imposter also, but the things published in his name were pretty good.

Mr Silberstone, or whoever you are, I think your comment was one of the finest I've ever read on Newsvine. And it articulates the opinion of many of my Jewish and Israeli friends.

Oh, really?

This gives "Silberstone" away completely:

When I hear people in Shul (your average Zionist) saying the government should just take the Palestinians, men, women and children, into the Sinai desert and slaughter them - that's not Yiddishkeit (Judaism) - does it remind you of anything?

1. "When I hear people in Shul (your average Zionist)" - I think this is a total fabrication. What people? What does he presume to be your "average Zionist"? What is he doing in a shul he so disapproves of. Zionists & anti-Zionists don't generally belong to the same shul. It's not adding up.

2. The Sinai Desert is in Egypt, lending more credence to this being a fabrication.

As to why you are comfortable with lies, I leave that to you.

Sadly this has become true. Currently Palestinian Refugee's trapped in Iraq have ended up in precisely this situation. One of the camps housing these non citizens has a climate that reaches (105ºf) 40ºc + in summer and -5ºc (20ºf) in winter. the tents are ripped apart by sandstorms and nothing can live there not even a blade of grass.

Brilliant article Yaakov. Sorry I'm a bit late coming to it having been away on holiday for 3 weeks.

I too am somewhat suspicious of Mr Silberstone's authenticity. Sure, Orthodox Jews are not all clones of each other - there are shades of opinion and there are bound to be some Jews who take more extreme views, in one way or another.

All the same, Mr Silberstone does not ring true. He seems to be going to some pains to try to convince us of his credentials.

It is almost as if someone with the agenda of say Gideon Polya (who invariably expresses himself with the subtlety of an AK-47 sputtering cut and paste stats) but with infinitely more guile and cunning had set about trying to worm his way under everyone's guard.

That's the impression I get. If I'm wrong I am ready to apologise unreservedly to Mr Silberstone.

I just got done reading the entire thread. It appears that a few people are having a hard time acknowledging the entire premise of the article. Clearly, the purpose is to point out that the events in the video did not happen yesterday, and could perhaps be better understood with reference to what was going on at the time. Yaakov was diligently fair in his presentation and did not withhold criticism for the tragedy. It was merely a response to what he perceived to be the misleading nature of old footage not placed into appropriate context. The fact that this many people did not perceive that the video was from 2002 indicates that whoever put it up initially was irresponsible in not providing a date reference. It's as dishonest as me putting up an old picture of myself but not explaining that I don't look that way today, knowing full well that is what people would assume.

Unfortunately the whole conversation has devolved. I can always tell that a "discussion" has reached the point of no return when someone brings the Nazi's or Hitler into it. After that, it's quite impossible for many people to be rational. When beliefs are so firmly entrenched it generally does not matter what's rational, true, real, or even important since usually people are not going to budge.

I am not sure about that miasma. When it was seeded it was Breaking news, Killfile was not the only blogger to catch it. The story also appeared on reddit. This has happened to me before and I have seen it happen with BBC breaking news. The story gets pulled or updated and the link defaults to an older story that is very similar.

Well I have found the video that all the Buzz is about. Its on my home page. Nice try Yaakov but I knew there had to be something behind this.

Well then I suppose i better put up the one you dont want us to see. But which one is that ? Ill try There was no warning. The IDF called them Whores and opened fire. Second Video; Snipers execute teenagers. Maybe that is the one Killfile wanted us to see and you dont Yaakov.

Demolition of Arab homes and buildings is another popular way of "purifying" the native population. If you don't have the proper licence, you're in serious trouble...

Please. I belong to 2 Orthodox shuls, live in a community with 5 different day schools, 3 of those orthodox, and have never heard what "Silberstone" describes come from the pulpit of any shul. The whole style of writing does not ring true. In fact, the very Orthodox tend to avoid TV and internet. I maintain my suspicion based on my own knowledge & experience of the community.

Fair enough--I'm nowhere near Orthodox and don't have a good sense of whether or not Silberstone is authentic. I am familiar with some of the thinking behind Orthodox opposition to the establishment of Israel and thought it might be worth mentioning to those without any background at all who one would expect to be unaware of any split of opinion amongst Jews regarding Israel's legitimacy.

Perhaps a link would have been more succinct:

hrrm. Apparently I can't link (I'm a newsvine noob.) Those interested can look up "Haredim and Zionism" on Wikipedia.

I want to clarify - I've never heard anyone "From The Pulpit" in any Shul I've been in state that the Palestinians should be massacred in the Sinai. I never said "From the pulpit" which would imply that it was said, perhaps by a Rabbi, as he addressed the synagogue. I am saying that I have definitely heard it more than once on different occasions by the average Zionist (not someone I would normally call a militant Zionist like a Kahane-nic) in different shuls/communities. The concern and reprehensible aspect of this is that Jews today even think this way - this certainly goes totally contrary to Jewish beliefs.

Welcome to Newsvine.

Thank you

We agree on the point that we are in spiritual exile, unfortunately we don't agree regarding the physical exile point. Why do you think no attempt has been made by Jews in over 2000 years has been made to retake the land (until the Zionist movement began in the 1890's)? Is the mitzvah of living in Eretz Yisrael still a mitzvah, of course - although there are differing views on whether one should try to fulfill this mitzvah in our days as well as how Jews can/should do it. No one is questioning the kedushag of Eretz Yisrael.

"Purification" can certainly be interpreted in more than one way - although I think most people would associate the term with people and the more sinister meaning (I would agree that the soldier probably didn't intend it to be as extreme as the Nazi usage, but I do think that it was more in that direction (and I think the context in the video might agree with this opinion) then the arguably more innocent suggestion that it was referring to just weapons or terrorists).

I don't recall taking a position about the "Oslo War" so please, once again, be careful about accuracy - I only referred to Sharon and his visit to the Temple Mount. Regarding your view about that visit by Sharon: "I would say that it was necessary and appropriate for him to go there." You do of course realize that all Jews are forbidden to go there because of it's holiness - specifically because we don't know exactly where the Kodesh Hakodeshem were located? It would seem that it was inappropriate for him to go there for several reasons, but at least two would be because of the obvious likelihood that it would provoke the Palestinians/Arabs who also consider it holy and because it is forbidden for Jews to go there in the first place - knowing this, do you still believe he was right?

I am not stating that everything Camera and/or HonestReporting writes is inaccurate or wrong. But taken as a whole, where the sites are posing as "unbiased" reporters of Israeli and Middle East affairs is dishonest and obviously intended to misguide people. It is this aspect which is offensive and should be recognized as being dishonest - yet Zionists find it necessary to do this to defend their views - I wonder why? I would add that sites like these are hardly a good source to cite to backup one's assertions or claims.

I don't believe I ever said that you made blanket statements such as 'Israel can do no wrong.' I did point out that you chose to defend IDF actions and statements, documented in a video, through illogical positions and rationalizations. Obviously your views were pro-Israel and pro-Zionist. I'm not trying to suggest that one that is pro-Israel/pro-Zionist always agrees with everything the State of Israel does - of course not - but this video certainly seemed like a poor choice of things to try to defend or explain. In general though, the whole basis for the State of Israel and the Zionist movement is flawed at it's very core, most traditional (please don't substitute for Chassidic, I'm not Chasidishe) Orthodox Jews know this - although they differ on how to "deal" with the State of Israel issue and unfortunately rarely speak up publicly.

From a Jewish standpoint, the Zionist movement is an atrocity all by itself and makes all Jews and the Torah look terrible to the world. Sugarcoating the problem by talking about all the Torah study and "good" that is being done as a result of the State of Israel is, unfortunately once again, just a way to rationalize something that is indefensible.

I agree with you that things do not happen in a vacuum, but if the goal is to put things in context - it requires one to look at both sides and go farther back in time - why are you just putting the video in the context of 2002, was there nothing prior to 2002 that led to the events of 2002? If you go back far enough, you realize that the starting point for all of this was - yes, you guessed it - the Zionist movement - the Palestinians didn't pick this fight, it came to them. They didn't suggest to Herzel Y"S or the World Zionist Congress, that they try to establish a new State in Palestine - that was a decision made by Zionists to pursue.

This isn't about empathy for a fellow Jew, are you expecting me to defend a Chilul Hashem (the desecration of G-d's name) or support the killing of innocent people in the name of Judaism when it isn't so? This is about honesty and, as I've referenced numerous times in the earlier postings, Zionism is, for the most part, devoid of it. It should never be confused with Judaism which is a religion based on the Torah and serving G-d, not on trying to control a piece of land about the size of New Jersey.

I agree that it is unlikely that one can change your perspective, no matter how many ways one tries to point out the obvious contradictions in your apparent views. I don't claim to know you, but I have heard all the arguments you've made, many times before. So in that regard, I do believe I have a limited understanding of some of your views and it doesn't seem like I'm that far off since you still express positions which go contrary to Jewish law, but fall more in line with Zionist perspectives.

I don't believe I've attacked you personally - if so, I apologize. My intention has been to point out to other readers, if not yourself, the irrationality of defending the video as well as the broader topic of Zionism which of course is at the center of this whole topic. Were it not for Zionism, I think one can safely say there wouldn't be any Jews carrying around weapons, shooting missiles, driving tanks or knocking down doors and killing innocent people in Eretz Yisrael.

BTW, thank you for the tutorial on replying within comment threads. I obviously didn't properly proofread my comment, hence the "your" vs "you're" typo, although I'm not sure why you're bringing it up - do punctuation and grammatical errors count in this debate/discussion? :-)

Yaakov, regarding your point:

"It is a plain fact that when a Jew is standing in the Land of Israel, he is obligated in many more mitzvot and fulfilling many more mitzvot than if he were not. By dint of that, I am not in physical exile today, though you (if you are writing from outside of the Land) are. I can't see the argument against this. "

There's no disagreement that when you are standing in the Land of Israel you are obligated in more mitzvos – of course this is true. But one doesn't need to control the land for these mitzvos to apply – hence I'm not sure what this has to do with my point about physical exile.

Something which Zionism clearly seems to think is necessary, but Judaism does not at all condone is "might makes right". Why do you think Jews have been passive for the last 2000 years? Because they couldn't organize themselves to take back the land? No, because we are in exile and it isn't our right or even our responsibility to take back the land during this period. The great sage, the Ramban, held the position that people should live in Eretz Yisrael (a sage which Zionists love to quote as a justification for their religious positions regarding the State of Israel), yet he himself lived in Spain for most of his life and only moved when he was forced to, eventually going to Eretz Yisrael 3 years before he passed away. The Ramban certainly never, chas vesholom, suggested that people should take the land by force or support anything which would lead to the deaths of so many Jews and non-Jews and certainly not the colossal chilul Hashem the Zionist are responsible for. The reason Jews have been quiet for 2000 years is because that is the proper way for a Jews to act while in exile – this is well known and I'm surprised you're not aware of this. It's unfortunate that apparently Zionists have either never been taught this or choose to ignore it.

Regarding:

"The presence of Jews in Israel is itself a provocation of the Palestinians/Arabs."

This is patently wrong – Jews have lived peacefully with Arabs and Muslims during many periods in history. Jews have lived in Eretz Yisrael for centuries, co-existing with Arabs. The strife began when the Arabs began to feel threatened by the Zionists and their movement. This of course led to the Hebron Yeshiva massacre of 1929. I'm expecting you may disagree with this, so I'll cite Rabbi Baruch Kaplan who was present at the massacre when it occurred:

"The Arabs were very friendly people, and the Jewish People in Hebron lived together with them and had very friendly relations with them."

"No one in the yeshiva ever told me it was dangerous to go by myself among the Arabs. We just lived with them, and got along very well."

"The Arabs were a friendly people to us, and I am a witness to it. We lived very well with them in Hebron. Rabbi Alter attested to this as well, and it is the accursed Zionists who caused them to hate us."

Need I say more?

It should be noted that many Jews were also saved on that day by Arabs that protected them in their homes.

Regarding:

"Just because Sharon's visit provoked our cousins does not in itself mean he should not have gone up. Sometimes you have to stake your ground on crucial issues, even if it leads to bad press."

Wow, I'm not sure how many different ways I can express to you how far away that perspective is from Judaism. While in exile our obligation is to try and live in peace with non-Jews, not provoke them or try to stake our ground. One fights when one has to, such as the Warsaw ghetto uprising. One should be trying to avoid provocation, not the exact opposite. I refer back to my earlier statement regarding the Zionist mentality - "might makes right". This approach of course only leads to bloodshed.

Regarding:

"In your comments above, you have made a good number of references to me and my supposed adherence to Secular Zionism above Torah and halacha. In so doing, you are attacking me personally."

Please review everything I've written, you will never find me using the term "Secular Zionism" and, of course, I therefore never made a reference to you adhering to Secular Zionism. I recognize the fact that you consider yourself a "Religious Zionist". My points are targeted at Zionism, regardless of whether you consider yourself a "Religious Zionist" or a "Secular Zionist" – as I've said numerous times now, Zionism is an extremist political movement which has exploited Judaism, the religion, to justify and rationalize heinous acts which have resulted in untold suffering and death for both Jews and Non-Jews. If you call yourself a Religious Zionist then you are obviously agreeing, on some level, with Zionism. Anti-Zionist (Chasideshe, Litvish, etc…) Jews are not just against Hertzl Y"S, they are against the political movement in general, which encompasses both Secular and Religious Zionists. Do they agree that Eretz Yisrael is holy – of course, but they do not agree with the heavy handed, take by force attitude that Zionism generally extols. Certainly there are Zionists that are peaceniks, ironically they tend to be Secular Zionists.

And finally, regarding:

"Were it not for Zionism, I guarantee you that America and the entire world would not be as friendly to Jews as it is today, and that you would not have the freedom to carry out your life of Traditional Orthodox Judaism that you are able to do today."

Do you actually believe what you wrote? Out of everything that's been said so far, this has to be the single worst (best?) example of Zionist propaganda so far. Out of curiosity, where do Zionists come up with these claims.

Boy, where should I begin? I guess the first problem is with your "guarantee" - on what factual basis can you possibly make such as absurd assertion? You may be able to theorize on this point, but to state this as if it was actually a provable point is completely illogical. As far as the entire world being as friendly as they are toward Jews – I guess I have to wonder then why Zionists keep expressing how much the world is against the Jews and the State of Israel is a necessity.

Your guarantee that, in America, I wouldn't have the freedom to carry out my life as a Traditional Orthodox Jew were it not for Zionism – boy, you really do believe this stuff don't you? I think most reasonable people will find it very difficult, perhaps impossible, to understand how you're able to make that claim.

I don't defend the enemies of the Jews, that's why I'm so critical of the Zionists.

Well said, Mark.

Hmmm - Yaakov, I see that you deleted my last posting - really, censorship doesn't become you. No worries, I've kept a copy for everyone to appreciate what you're trying to delete - enjoy.

Zionism goes against Judaism according to the views of virtually all Rabbinic leaders prior to the founding of the State of Israel. If you choose to follow "modern" rabbi's in your support of Zionism, rather than the universally respected leaders who stringently and emphatically were against it - then you've only demonstrated that you'd prefer to pursue something, no matter what the cost, rather than take a neutral or ideally negative view of Zionism. Hence my assertion that your priorities lean more toward Zionism rather than Torah and Judaism.

There is a well known concept in Judaism that as the generations pass there is a loss of Torah knowledge and the Rabbi's of today are not on the level of previous generations - and I'm not even referring to today's extreme ones who seem to support Zionism regardless of the heinous results. On top of all of this, there are very few rabbis today who are universally followed - if you go back just one or two generations, world Jewry still had those exceptional Rabbonim and you will find that virtually all were against the State of Israel. How to deal with the State today is a totally separate discussion.

My point is that Zionism is not at all a "mainstream" Jewish concept as you've tried to suggest. Torah study, Shabbos and Kashrus are mainstream - a love and respect for the Land of Israel is of course also mainstream, but don't try to confuse anyone online that Zionism is somehow Judaism - it isn't. Fundamentally, Jews have always had love for the Land of Israel, that is not Zionism (although in an earlier posting you're somehow trying to link the two when they are simply not the same). Zionism consists of extremists and ignorant Jews who are willing to say and do whatever it takes, by hook or by crook, to rationalize the righteousness of Jews controlling the land in Israel at this point in time. They are not willing to follow the wisdom of great leaders that so many of them claim, paradoxically, to somehow hold in great reverence.

Twisting the Torah and the words of Chazal may help Zionists justify their actions, but it's not the Torah that's been followed for 2000+ years that we have been in exile. It is, as you've implied, a way of taking the land back by force and using a completely convoluted interpretation of Torah to justify it, which has hence resulted in so many countless innocent Jewish and non-Jewish lives being lost.

What is shocking is how often in Jewish history, we have gone through this sort of thing and how often great numbers have jumped in with both feet, when in hindsight it is so obvious how big the mistake was and we wonder, "What were they thinking?" It is well known that during the days of the exodus – in particular at the time of the Golden Calf – that even, Chas Vesholom, gedolim of today would have run to worship the calf had they lived at that time. Do you remember Shabbatai Tzvi, the false messiah during the 1600's? I strongly recommend that you, and really anyone, read the history on Wikipedia – it's quite thorough and a variety of obvious parallels to the Zionist movement of today are quite remarkable. I think it does a very good job of making this point.

Yaakov, unfortunately your decision to avoid answering my earlier points simply suggests what is already pretty obvious, that there really isn't any reasonable way to defend Zionism, not religiously, not secularly, not logically – the only way that it can be rationalized is emotionally and that's what is obviously driving the movement and is unfortunately resulting in so much suffering and a catastrophic dark spot on Judaism today. Unfortunately people like yourself appear to be so convinced that Zionism is valid that, regardless of how much proof or consequences there are to dispute this view, nothing will change their mind. I'm confident I've made my points quite convincingly to anyone reading this thread with a reasonable amount of objectivity. If you wish to address my arguments against Zionism, fine. If you choose to dodge them or make excuses of why you don't want to respond to them, then so be it.

Mark, please post your deleted reply in your own column. This story is getting quite interesting now ;-)

Yaakov, thanks for taking the time to clarify this. However, I doubt that the Arabs/Palestinians care much for this, or any other distinction between Secular Zionism and Religious Zionism. To them it's simply Israeli/Zionist politics, and it's been so for nearly 60 years now — with no real hope or improvement in sight.

Well, at least you responded to my last posting rather than deleting it - again. Your effort to make a distinction between Secular and Religious Zionism totally misses the obvious which Keld so succinctly points out. Both try to use Judaism for their own means – each group is just taking a different approach to rationalize their acts. The Secular Zionists used their Jewish heritage and the fact that the Land of Israel is the Jewish people's historic homeland as the basis for their right to do what ever is necessary to control the land, the "Religious" Zionists put their own spin on the Torah to do so. Zionism, both Secular and Religious, was opposed by Orthodox Jewish leaders – hence, for the sake of this discussion there isn't any practical distinction between them.

As far as providing references - I've provided links, I've provided names, I've provided quotes, I've provided history – I think we would both agree that one can't cite all the references here – hence I've suggested people use google – how about responding to most of my points instead of cherry picking the few that you respond to.

Regarding #5 in your posting above:

"I was disgusted by how his hatred of Zionism was so much coloring his thinking that even the massacre of Jews in Hevron is the fault of those Jews, not of their murderes"

I never said or even implied that and to suggest that I did is blatantly false. You might want to re-read what I wrote above. I made it very clear, specifically from my quote of Rabbi Kaplan who was at the Hebron Yeshiva at the time of the massacre and witnessed the events first hand, that the Zionists provoked the Arabs when they had been warned about the potential consequences. Rabbi Kaplan blamed the Zionists and he was there – are you now disagreeing with him??? I never, ever said that the murdered Yeshiva students were responsible for their own deaths. Accuracy would be nice when stating something. I understand that you're frustrated, but if you can't debate a point then at worst leave it alone (which you've done quite frequently I've noted) and at best admit it (which I've noted once or twice you've done as well).

Rabbi Teichtal and Rabbi Kook (considered by many to be a maverick due to his pro-Zionist views during the 1930's and whom you've notably avoided mentioning - is usually the first to be mentioned by Zionists trying to make a religious argument) who were clearly pro-Zionist in their views both passed away before the founding of the State, so there is no way to know how they would feel about the current state of affairs. But I think it is fair to say that neither would support "human lives for land" as a philosophy condoned by the Torah (this would be a fundamental Jewish law – there are only 3 things for which a Jew must sacrifice his life, Idolatry, murder (for example if there is a choice between one dying or that person killing someone else, then they must sacrifice their own life) and forbidden sexual relations).

Your statement: "in Jewish Law, majority rules" is an absurdly gross over simplification of how Jewish law works – I hope you realize this, certainly everyone else should be aware of this. Then trying to suggest that points which you acknowledge have held true for 2000 years are no longer valid because the Zionists, by sheer number, say so is utter nonsense. Using that oversimplified logic, if the majority of non-Orthodox Jews agreed on something (and there are far more non-Orthodox then Orthodox Jews), then it would become Jewish law and Orthodox Jews would be obligated to follow it. Do you not see the absurdity of your statement, "in Jewish Law, majority rules? Of course, using even that flawed representation of Jewish law, you obviously make the case against Zionism since the overwhelming majority of Rabbi's were against Zionism right from the beginning, as a result, obviously Zionists were going against Jewish law. Trying to conceive Torah based arguments to support Zionism when there are 2 millennia of mesorah (tradition) and Torah scholars who never encouraged anything like what we see represented in the State of Israel today should clarify the absurdity of this perspective. Then of course there is the magnum opus of the Satmar Rebbe, "Voyoel Moshe", published in the early 1960's, which is only about the subject of Zionism and cites literally hundreds and hundreds of sources for his views against Zionism. BTW, your reference to Kesuvos 11a, should actually be 111a, but thanks for mentioning it. 

Regarding:

"I agree with you that many pre-Holocaust religious leaders in Europe were vehemently opposed to Secular Zionism."

Ummm – I didn't say that. Please, this is now at least the 3rd or 4th time I've asked that you try to be accurate when referring to something I've said – distorting it or implying that I've said something else is not the basis for an honest debate. Just to clarify I did not say "Secular Zionism", I said "Zionism" – as I've made clear, there is no practical difference, both use different approaches to achieve a similar goal – controlling the land. Each one may have different intentions for the land, but the fact that both are willing to support or rationalize killing for achieving their common goals is where the problem is.

Regarding:

"I never tried to suggest that "Zionism", as you define it, is a "mainstream Jewish concept".

I'm glad that we seem to agree that Zionism is not a mainstream Jewish concept, in one of your earlier posts that seemed to be exactly what you were saying. While I'm confident you would fiercely disagree, I think one can comfortably say, Zionism is, for the most part, another form of extremism, unfortunately involving Jews.

Regarding:

"You state that the Zionist movement (which you define as both Secular Zionist politics and Religious Zionist Torah ideologies) is intrinsically an atrocity. Please back this up. You have made this accusation numerous times without giving anything more than your word."

I believe you'll find that I've given more than my word regarding the atrocity that is Zionism – are the words of universally recognized Gedollim (great leaders) against Zionism not enough? What about the dire consequences, suffering and death and resulting Chillul Hashem and bizoyon Torah (disgrace to the Torah), does that not make it obvious? As I've already mentioned, it is a fundamental Torah belief that we are in exile and the Gedollim stated this unequivocally in their opposition to Zionism. It is also a fundamental Torah belief that we are supposed to be waiting, peacefully, to be taken out of exile – please show me where the Torah supports this blood for land attitude that Zionism condones?

As mentioned several postings ago, no one in their right Jewish mind would live in a settlement surrounded by danger, let alone with their young children, and much less a settlement not even part of the historic land of Israel all in an effort to control land. Yet, Zionists, "Religious Zionists" if you prefer the term and so there's no ambiguity, seem to think this is Torah mandated behavior – it isn't. Neither the Vilna Gaon, nor Rav Tzvi Kalischer ever condoned this sort of attitude either – please cite references if you disagree.

The Vilna Gaon supported the idea of Jews going and living in the land – I've never disagreed with the basic idea of Jews living in the land. There has been an uninterrupted Jewish presence in Eretz Yisrael for centuries. The problem that Jewish leaders have had with Zionism was their approach – it flew in the face of the Torah perspective of our current exile, along with all of the obvious and terrible potential consequences that , which have now proven to obviously be true and accurate. How many must die before the iniquity and erroneousness of Zionism is acknowledged – I fear that for some, perhaps too many, there is no limit.

Brenda - what you're stating is an opinion - just as I am stating an opinion, whether or not the case can be made "successfully" would be a matter for a court to decide, although I see your point.

I see two clear problems with this argument:

1. Why were the IDF soldiers themselves questioning their actions if they were so justified - it would seem that their words could clearly be used as a convincing argument against proximate cause.

2. If the police are hunting for a violent criminal here in the US and the criminal is known to be hiding in a residential area - that doesn't give the police the right to accidentally kill an innocent resident in their search for the criminal. What do you think would happen to the police responsible?