Condoleeza, Please go Home, You Mess up the Traffic

Go back to Europe Gideon and let the aborigines have their land back. When you've done that please feel at liberty to criticize disposession of land by others in the knowledge you are safe from accusations of hypocrisy.

Cue:

READERS OF THIS THREAD!!!!!! .... ETC ETC ETC

#2.1 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:40 PM EDT

Gideon Polya

Like other decent, non-racist Australians and like decent , non-racist Israelis (like Gideon Levy, Deb Reich, Dr Ilan Pappe, the late Professor Tanya Reinhart, Uri Avnery and Gush Shalom) I publicly and unequivocally insist on apology and just reconciliation and on the human rights, equal rights and land rights of the Indigenous Inhabitants - anything less is racism and pround disrespect not just to my martyred forebears but to ALL people subject to gross human rights abuse.

And I can't "return to Europe" (no more than 7 million Palestinian refugees can return to their homes in the Holy Land) - they have not said "sorry" and our homes and lands (a very large 2-story palace in Pest filled with photos and paintings of my family and a house and estate in Buda) are still "occupied" without apology or compensation.

And as for several key Australia-Israel comparisons:

1. the post-invasion excess deaths in the Occupied Palestinian Territory total 0.3 million; current population about 3.8 million) VERSUS 90,000 avoidable Indigenous Australian deaths in the last 11 years of Bush-ite Coalition Government; current Indigenous population of 0.5 million (see "Racism in Australia": link );

2. the "lucky Palestinians" (the Arab Israelis) not living in the abusive Occupied Palestinian Territory "Prison" (outstanding Jewish American Professor Chomsky's nomenclature) are second class citizens and subject to profoundly offensive race-based legal restrictions; indeed outstanding Jewish South African hero in the fight against Apartheid and currently a Government minister, Ronnie Kasrils has declared

"Israel 2007: worse than Apartheid"

(see: link ) VERSUS the "annual death rate" is 2.2% for Indigenous Australians, 2.4% for Indigenous Australians in the Northern Territory as compared to 0.4% (what it should be) and 2.5% for Australian SHEEP (see link above) and BOTH MAJOR PARTIES recently agreed to legislatively grossly breach the 1975 Racial Discrimination Act in relation to (guess who?) - Indigenous Australians in the Northern Territory.

1 vote

#2.2 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:34 PM EDT

ignoblus

Gideon, half the people you slander as genocidaires are trying to promote peace, human rights, multiculturalism, and an end to the occupation. And you constantly strive to stand in their way! If you weren't so self-righteous, you'd break down in tears at your own genocidal idiocy.

2 votes

#2.3 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:50 PM EDT

I've not finished on Gideon's double standards viz a viz his own country. Not by a long chalk.

What has apology got to do with it Gideon? Is apology enough? Why can't the aborigines have their land back? You expect Israel to disappear and give the arabs that land on the basis it was taken off them wrongly.

Or does Israel merely need to apologize and stay in situ, since that's all you require European colonisers of the antipodes to do?

And as for the fact you have nowhere else to go, where do you expect 5m Jews in Israel to go? Who would have them last time they were under threat not so long ago? If Israel is a colonialist abhorrence then you presumably want it reversed, so why not Australia?

How well did the Europeans treat the aborigines, not in last 11 years which are totally irrelevant to the comparison, but at the time of taking possession of their country. It's not as if they were facing a terrorist threat to their civilians from the aborigines. The land stolen was vastly bigger than the tiny State of Israel, and there really was nowhere for the aborigines to go and make new homes, unlike the Palestinians surrounded by (you would imagine) friendly arab countries where they could rebuild their lives.

Does it make a difference that Australia was colonised longer ago? It wasn't all that long ago. Around 150 or so years before the founding of Israel, that's all. Not a long time in the scheme of things.

So does Israel just need to stick around for another 150 years then the passage of time changes everything? They are then OK to stay and just say sorry, and have magically stopped being the terrible imperialist evil you now describe them as?

2 votes

#2.4 - Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:10 AM EDT

Gideon Polya

Readers of this thread - "You expect Israel to disappear" has been falsely attributed to me in #2.4 - it is a false assertion. As I have made repeatedly clear as a decent, anti-racism humanitarian I advocate Peace for all the inhabitants of the Holy Land (5 million Jewish Israelis, 1.5 million "second class citizen" Indigenous Arab Israelis and 4 million Indigenous Occupied Palestinians still imprisoned and without major basic human rights after 40 years) AND the 7 million Indigenous Palestinian refugees - but a Peace involving respect for International laws and Conventions (return to 1967 borders) and non-racism, equity, justice and reconciliation (e.g. see: link ; link ; link ).

1 vote

#2.5 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:14 PM EDT

could conjure up images of Condoleeza on a pogo stick

LOL.

Well traffic jams are more or less unavoidable when the US government pays a visit to smaller industrialized nations. Ironically, the way I remember it it was worse when Clinton visited Copenhagen than when Bush did.

And without full knowledge of the details of the ongoing negotiations, this does seem to be some of the more reasonable statements made by her. Don't make silly arguments about traffic considering the importance of the topic.

#3 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:14 PM EDT

Yaakov

And without full knowledge of the details of the ongoing negotiations, this does seem to be some of the more reasonable statements made by her. Don't make silly arguments about traffic considering the importance of the topic.

The ongoing "negotiations" are a bunch of baloney. The PLO has already stated that it will agree to nothing less than going back to the 1948 borders, return of immigrants, Israel giving up the old city, etc. And implied a new intifada is in the works in case things don't work out. Condi is going against years of US policy of not negotiation with the PLO while they have not yet met any of their responsibilities to Israel for shutting down terror organizations, and is trying to force Israel to give up more security for the sake of a worthless agreement. See here for more. Wishful thinking and good intentions don't do anything, other than normally making the situation worse. Although the topic is important, I do not think that the way in which Israel's security is being bandied about and the assurances of the US that the PLO is peaceful (while they continue to preach anti-Israel and anti-US propaganda, support terrorism, etc) are even worth a couple of traffic jams for the locals. That is how low my opinion of them is.

#3.1 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:12 PM EDT

nothing less than going back to the 1948 borders

The PLO may take too tough a stance in general. But I still don't see how any nation should be allowed territorial conquest!?

#3.2 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:43 PM EDT

Yaakov

But I still don't see how any nation should be allowed territorial conquest!?

So territorial conquest is ok for all of history up until the end of WWII (meant mostly as a rhetorical question)? The land that we are talking about has probably been the subject of territorial conquest more than any area in the world, in all of history.

And please tell me what country did Israel "conquest" the West Bank from in 1967? Palestine? Didn't exist! Jordan? From 1948-1967, their claim was never recognized (except by GB, if I am not mistaken).

#3.3 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:54 PM EDT

Fine. Shall we reverse the conquest by returning the West Bank to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt? Would that then satisfy the people living there?

No?

Well, it's not just about conquest then, is it? If it's all about fulfilling Palestinian nationalism then they are the ones doing the conquering - at the expense of Egypt and Jordan. Is that OK?

OK, for Palestinians to take land off those countries but not Israel?

#3.4 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:01 PM EDT

I don't want to discuss details. I stated my general opinion. Otherwise I subject to Geneva Conventions and UN resolutions etc.

#3.5 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:30 PM EDT

I don't want to discuss detail

Sorry but that's where the devil is!

;-)

Benno. Please desist from oversimplifying to suit your agenda then running away from the practicalities.

#3.6 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:33 PM EDT

Please desist from oversimplifying to suit your agenda

You mean like this ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

#3.7 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:41 PM EDT

Ah, but I'm happy to discuss the details. Where shall we start?

#3.8 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:06 PM EDT

Mind if we take our money when we leave? Something about beggars and choosers comes to mind here.

1 vote

#4 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:12 PM EDT

The Americans are paying for an outpost of democracy in the Middle East and getting value for money. Better value than their second effort at democracy in the region.

#4.1 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:37 PM EDT

You'd think there'd be a little gratitude though. Especially since the Israeli budget would collapse without good old Uncle Sam's charity.

1 vote

#4.2 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:10 PM EDT

ignoblus

Yaakov, I disagree with a lot of what you say here. In particular, this:

Everyone here laughs at you and your ideas of the peaceful Palestinians with whom you would deign to make peace deals

But it's a good reminder that Israelis and (especially, perhaps you forget) Palestinians deal with all sorts of stuff on a quotidian basis that the rest of us tend to forget about. It's hardly surprising that people can get frustrated and jaded so quickly when the only tangible effect of negotiations can be traffic.

1 vote

#5 - Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:54 PM EDT

And those of us who live in DC really wonder what the fuss is all about. The crap Yaakov describes is pretty much a weekly occurrence downtown, particularly on days when the weather is bad for helicopters.

#5.1 - Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:59 AM EDT

Yaakov

The crap Yaakov describes is pretty much a weekly occurrence downtown

One difference: when the road is blocked to get onto the highway from my community, then there is no way around. No detour, no alternate route. That road is the only way to get to Jerusalem and the rest of Israel.

#5.2 - Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:38 AM EDT

ignoblus

AA, I am trying to let traffic problems stand as well as representative of a lot of other problems that don't happen in DC.

#5.3 - Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:45 AM EDT

Well, perhaps she should stay in Tel Aviv then. We don't recognize Jerusalem as the capital anyway, right? Our embassy is still in Tel Aviv.

#5.4 - Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:09 AM EDT

I'm well aware that many states don't recognise Jerusalem as the capital. Having said that if you recognize Israel at all, how could you think it was up to anyone but the Israeli government to decide where the capital should be?

Maybe the EU might pass a directive declaring the capital of the USA to be Tampa. Actually, that's a good idea, let's try it.

1 vote

#5.5 - Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:21 AM EDT

Well, it appears we aren't welcome there.

#5.6 - Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:15 AM EDT

Where aren't you welcome? Tampa? The EU?

Oh, you mean Jerusalem. Sure you're welcome. But I guess Yaakov might prefer you to leave the motorcade and private army behind if you're just going to be wasting everyone's time in order to give your poll ratings a boost.

2 votes

#5.7 - Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:20 AM EDT