Don't Believe Every Gruesome Claim About Israel That You Read

NeoRandian not everyone who condems Israel's actions againest Gaza over the last year or more is anti -semite however you show your on narrow -minded view point with that statement. Wrong is Wrong no matter who is committing the act and past history does not excuse Israel's over-reaction. Special forces could have been used with as much effect and with less international condemnation but the Israeli government and Hamas both have no respect for innocent lives.

Gus, did I ever state that everyone who decries Israel's actions are anti-semetic?

Gus.  Over-reaction?  What do you want them to do?  Kiss hamas feet and say "pretty please".  These discussions might get somewhere if you would read Hamas' charter that calls for  the destruction of Israel period.  Just what do you think would get their attention?  Your premise would be more believable if you would admit that Israel has its children too who can't even come above ground to go to school.  This is not a matter of proportionality, it's a matter of survival and Israel has every right to do what they must to protect their citizens period.  If you don't hold any other country to a higher standard when attacked, then don't do it to Israel.

The Palestinians elected terrorists to represent them. Then cry to the world to stop the bloodshed that their officials started. How about rather than crying to the world to stop the bloodshed, try crying to their elected officials to stop the bloodshed. How about electing peace loving officials for a change. They give praise to the guys who give them blankets when they are cold without recognizing that the guys with the blankets are the guys to blame for no electricity. How long must the world be subjected to this stupidity? Maybe Fatah was not without its faults, but you have to take the lessor of two evils sometimes in politics. Bombs aren't dropping in West Bank. Only in Gaza. How about Fatah coming to the rescue of the Palestinian people in Gaza. Retake Gaza from Hamas. It is time to end this whole "Hamas as a political party" charade. By the bomb or by the people. Makes no difference, but end it. 

I agree with you palmetto, but my position won't be very popular here.  I say let them keep at it and stay out of it for a change.  We are not the world police.

I say let Israel have at it. Hamas needs to be taught a serious lesson, which is dont pick a fight and run home to mommy when you justly get your butt kicked.  I agree that we need to stay as far from it as possible, but we need to make our support for Israel known.

OregonDave, how far away do you suppose we can stay given that we sent Israel $77,000,000,000+ last year?  How much do you suppose this little battle is going to cost in the end?  Now, step back a moment.  Who's paying for alot of this death on the two sides?

JaRagga, where did you get that number it seems MUCH too large.

The numbers I( can find are ~$2.5B per year for FYs 2007 & 2008

http://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

Sigh, the numbers I used appear to be the total support from 1949 to 1997, I was relying on my memory and at my age and indiscretions of my youth probably not the best of ideas.  

I do apologize.  Still $2.5 billion is nothing to sneeze at and buys alot of bullets, bombs and shells when you get it every year and I still think without US financial support the Israelis' stomach wouldn't be as much into the whole affair.  Thanks for the correction iceman.  This is one case I should have went to wikipedia they've actually got numbers in line with those you found.  Good job.

Since you asked the question and it's good information for US citizens to know about I did find this link when I was looking for where I got my number from.  I found the following information.

This first link is a year by year break down and shows where US aid money goes that we send, pretty interesting stuff.  Year 2007 93.6% of our aid went right into the Israeli military machine (you have to do the math to get the percentage yourself).

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html

This one is probably one of the sources that I was remembering as their total covers the the years 1949-1997 and the total is pretty close to the one I quoted.  It's also a top hit when I googled "US aid to Israel" it looks like a US activist site that was formed by what looks like some pretty high profile folks when I dug around their site just now including a former British Officer from WWII, a US Ambassador, and others.

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

2 up votes for you.

Thanks,

The number just weemed too big and it was good exercise for me to find the numbers.

Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing the amounts provided to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct U.S. economic and military assistance since 1976 and the largest total recipient since World War ll. Total direct U.S. aid to Israel amounts to well over $140 billion in 2003 dollars. Israel receives about $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America's entire foreign aid budget. In per capita terms, the United States gives each Israeli a direct subsidy worth about $500 per year. This largesse is especially striking when one realizes that Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to South Korea or Spain.

source

jaragga,

By stay far away I mean not have a visible presence on the ground, as in Iraq etc. . Economically we need to try to continue or support for them. Of course most will try to point out our own economic problems, but regardless of that, we need to provide what help we can.  As far as who pays what for death, well it looks like Iran is providing the support for hamas, whom if you recall started this whole mess by providing hamas with rockets mortars etc.  Hamas is Irans baby, and they are trying to nurture it. Explain to me why hamas, a political/social group needs all that military hardware to provide a growing infrastructure that will give such things as electricity , water , hospitals etc. to the folks in the gaza. hamas is so pathetic in in attempts to help the people that the UN has to provide schools and hospitals while hamas spends its money on weaponry to harass a country that they know will retaliate and kick their butts.  So tell me, why shouldnt Israel pound the hell out of a terrorist group, and why we shouldnt back a country who has the same goals terrorist wise as we do?

I've seen Israel made into the scapegoat of this situation more than I'd care to recollect at the moment.

Remind you of anything?

Ahh, the good old days seem to have come back again... Sadly, some things will never change.

Me TOO Gulp...But I'm not from Chicago,

I support Peace with absolutely no strings attached when children are involved. There is no place for this and my heart is on both sides...........And NO, I will never pick a side when there has been propaganda from all in involved.

Sometimes you must pause and look from both sides off the mountain-top to make your decent safely to the bottom.

Yaakov and Dennis,

I wish that the courteous dialog between the two of you would inspire more people, whether they are involved or not in this conflict.

As for this conflict, I think that beyond the lies and truth that surround us like mine fields, an equitable solution can only be found through an arbitration of this mess by a third party. And that third party - a consortium of nations without Veto rights... not the UN, I changed my mind about this... - has to be carefully put together since History is proving to us right now, that choosing too casually may set up a time bomb for the next generations to deal with.

Peace. Shalom.

There is no doubt that the suggestion of arbitration will attract lightning from all directions. That is good. I take it as an indication that this is the right track. You don't expect two bloodied fighters to agree on arbitration in the middle of a fight.

Yet this is the only hope. The alternative is the obliteration of a nation. People like you and I. There are honest people on all sides that can feel pain as we all do; this is what concerns me. Let us keep reaching for a solution that excludes genocide.

Yaakov, do you then see any helpfull possible solutions? You may have stated them before, but I am new here.  Could you summarize, or add a link ?

From the perspective of your above comment and the above one from Dennis as well, I only see total doom and destruction on the horizon.

Dennis, I agree. That is, I agree unless someone else makes a better proposition.

Now, let us investigate this idea: America has, seens early G.W.Bush, surrendered its judgement to the hawkish administration currently in charge in Israel, I dont see how this can be done. Do you have any pragmatic suggestion?

Yaakov, thanks for your provided links. Please give me time to go through them. I have to log off at this point, but will be back later to pursue this discussion.

Shalom to you and to all that do care.

Dennis,

I agree. The UN is compromised. It is as good as dead. Nations with veto powers killed it. Yes, I do mean a suggestion as to Who... A very difficult question.

I agree with Dennis on all points here.

I think Turkey is especially promising, since it is a secular Muslim state, but I wonder if the Turkish government could weather the wrath of "the street" if it's willingness to treat with Israel fairly is perceived as a betrayal of the Palestinian cause.

OMG, I used "it's" for "its." I need more sleep.

Dennis,

It's nice to see you interacting with the strike of your keys again... It just wouldn't be the same discussion without you!

In my lifetime I would like to see Peace... That is all I have ever wanted. These games that we have played amongst the races is just that... the never ending race. Whether one side or the other is handicapped, all roads lead down the same paths. 

The one travelled heavily upon to no-where.

It is a shame that some turd had to steal and re edit a video . Its fantastic that it was caught and that Dennis issued a retraction and apology. Good for you Dennis

Dennis P. McCann,

The Israelis and Palestinians have been unable to make any real progress toward peace. It's time to take it out of their hands.

This is my profound conviction as well. I think that you have put forward some good ideas about the configuration of the mediating group. The list of the selected nations would be so crucial in this process! It would have to be approved by both sides. Not an easy task, but possibly doable if you consider the alternatives.  My knowledge of international politics is too slim to be of value here, except to list the ones that should not be on the mediation board.

No US, and no one from the Middle East. They're too close to the conflict.

I agree with the above. You worded this exclusion superbly. An undiplomatic mind like mine would crudely say "Based on past patterns where the above give their unconditional (i.e. without thinking) supports to their chosen ones, it would be a stillborn project if these were involved". Your wording is much better.      é¿ê

But the idea is a force from many nations, who could come in and enforce the peace, while the diplomats try to get the parties to agree to specifics.

Again I agree.

Yaakov surely has some observations to make on these suggestions. I would like to think that this is not a waste of time since the very idea of searching for an equitable solution gives the discussion another dimension.

Yaakov, ref your

| I've always believed that arbitration would not work, but intervention would.

 Ah, the UNWRA model. Love it. (1, 2, 3, 4)

 I followed those links and read their analysis and arguments against the UNIFIL initiatives in the middle east.

From my perspective, the analysis were rather one-sided since they did not offer a view from the Arab perspective as well. Regardless, I agree with the crucial part of their conclusions: The UN is a lame duck that has outlived its usefulness and is not helping in that area.

We need a new international body specifically dedicated to help undo that Gordian knot in the middle east. Putting that up looks like a herculean task. Giving it teeth would be almost impossible. Defining its objectives would not be easy, but would be easier than the above. One of the objectives I have in mind would be for it to establish an internationally manned military line along the critical borders around Israel. My daring and probably unpopular idea would be for that line to be responsible and to retaliate in whatever direction an agression would be coming from... Yes, I can hear the protests from all parties. I don't think that will fly, but I would put it on the table and let the parties squash it and possibly trade it for a better negotiated alternative.

Hell, stop the killings! Look for a solution! All is not lost as long as we keep on looking. Stop looking, and that will certainly be the end. The end for at least the entire region.

Dennis,

Yes, I'm sure he does, and I'd certainly like to delve further into this, if not here and now, then at some time in the near future. It's a bit tough on a large and varied thread like this, though. I fear we got lost in the shuffle.

True. Again, my inexperience is showing. I will keep an eye on a seed that addresses such a topic. A positive title such as "The middle east: In search of a solution" would be nice. I would not start it myself because I am not diplomatic enough to host such a thread.

Don't look at me Dennis, I'd just say outlaw religion and wait a generation and it'll work itself out ;)  I'll be happy to participate though.

However, I'd also get behind making Jerusalem an International city and taking away alot of the reason to fight over the Holy Lands.  That might work but maybe not.

Karl,  I have a solution that is viable.  Partition Israel and Palestine into what what roughly look like a Tao symbol.

1. Carve a narrow (say a coupla km wide) band starting from the Mediterranian following the southern Lebanese border toward the Golan Heights and down to conect with the West Bank to make a contiguos State of Palestine.
2. Compensate Israel for this loss of land by giving it the Gaza strip.
3. Israel gives up the Golan Heights completely.
4. Jerusalem is administered by an international body.  
5. The borders of Israel and Palestine go just around the west and east side of Jerusalem making the eye of the Tao symbol.
6. If they must, Israel makes a mini great wall starting from the new souther border of Palestine running east toward Jerusalem, around its western side, down to Lake Tiberias, starting again after the water break,  downward toward Bethlahem and to the Negev, down to the Red Sea and round it back if Israel wants to, westward along their sourthern border with Egypt to the Med again.  

The upshot for Israel is:

1. Israel keeps its territorial integrity and land mass although altered (favorably).
2. There's a border between Lebanon and Israel.   It could be monitored by an international body.
3. There is a border between Israel and Syria, which can also be monitored independendly if necessary.
4. They maintain access to the Tiberias and can get guarantees that Lebanon and Palestine will not fool with the water flow coming from Lebonon and Syria.
5. No more tunnels from Egypt to Gaza.

The potential downside is Palestinians could more easily team up with Hizbolla.  But that won't significantly alter the dynamics as it is now.  Hizbollah is already a pain in the @rs and Palestinians added to the mix won't make it any worse.  Rather, it may be more trouble to Hizbollah.  A master stroke in disguise if you ask me.

The upshot for Palestine is:

1. They get contiguous territory with access to the Med. sea; a major plus.
2. They maintain access to Jerusalem.

The downside is they have no more chips to play once they get the above.  No more victimization to hide behind.

I'd also get behind making Jerusalem an International city and taking away alot of the reason to fight over the Holy Lands

You are operating on the assumption that there is some end game that includes the existence of Israel that the Arabs will be satisfied with. I would contest that assertion.

Not really Yaakov, I also said that, "That might work but maybe not".  Nice idea in concept none the less and sort of how historic Alexandria, Egypt was handled in many ways, all the world went there for the library.

Alternatively, we can also state pretty easily, that we'd have to also be working under the assumption that there is some end game that includes the existence of a Palestinian state that the Israelis will be satisfied with, especially if that includes giving up part of Jerusalem.  Could we not Yaakov?

All's fair.  .  .  .

Steven P.

Downside Israel:

Lose of Golan Heights gives the Palestinians superior position for certain military activities.

Israelis would now have to be challenged when attempting to enter Jerusalem as I'm sure there would be some kinds of borders/checkpoints?  No?

Israel doesn't want Gaza, if they did they'd have kept it when they had it and moved the Palestinians to the West Bank.  It's a mess and in horrible shape. 

The plan places water reliance for much of the newly divided Israel into the hands of the Palestinians and somehow I just don't see that being something Israelis would be very happy about.

Down side for Palestinians:

You force 1.5 million of them to move yet again.

Other than that I'd think they'd get behind the idea initially.

Agreed Yaakov, so many wasted opportunities through the years by both sides (my opinion of course) which is why I'm cynical about this ever working out in any way shape or form for the long term.

Keep on looking. The alternative might be WW III.

And being used by both sides in this conflict

Busted.

According to MSNBC reporting, the palestinian authority's own claim is that, of the 500 who have been killed, 100 were civilians. In case you don't want to do the math, that means that 400 of the 500 who have been killed since December 27 are militants.

While Hamas can send rockets flying into Israel and hope they get "lucky" and hit someone -- they don't really care whom -- Israel is very carefully targeting Hamas militants, who in their bravery hide behind women and children and then cry "atrocity" when Israel strikes legitimate military targets.

"Injustice clearly can be demonstrated by one side," you write. Well, if you think any player in the Middle East conflict has a monopoly on justice, or on injustice, then I've got a bridge to sell you. Along with some propaganda.

Athena.  You might be interested in knowing that the 20% civilian casualties is the same figure as the United States et al. acheived in the (first) Gulf War.  That war was known as particularly clean and humane.  Figures for every war since 1991 are much higher.

Israel's doing a pretty good job, you'll agree?

In truth I think you'll find that many of the other 400 are military targets by implication rather than because they're Hamas.

zennhead, consider some statistics.  As of a few days ago, 25% of the casualties in Gaza were civilians.  That's roughly the same record as NATO's record in the Gulf War.  It's better than NATO's record in Bosnia, better than Russia & Georgia's records in South Ossetia, better than America et al.'s records in Afghanistan and Iraq. 

If Israel wanted to kill civilians, they could do so.  If Israel wanted to kill civilians, you'd see deaths in the thousands daily, not in the tens daily.  Israel clearly does care, because they're doing a damned good job avoiding civilian casualties.

If Israel wanted to kill civilians, they could do so.  If Israel wanted to kill civilians, you'd see deaths in the thousands daily, not in the tens daily.  Israel clearly does care, because they're doing a damned good job avoiding civilian casualties.

Exactly. Israel certainly does have the capability to wipe out human life in a very short amount of time, yet they have not done so. Those that call Israel's action "genocide" are deluded indeed. They see what they WISH to see, not what is.

Pure BS.

Zenhead is right.  The Israelies know exactly what they are doing.  They are terrorizing the population into giving up its support of Hamas, pure and simple.

Its amusing to listen to Israel, armed to the teeth as it is, accuse Hamas of terrorism.  It's like Goliath complaining that David shot his foot with a rock, then proceeds to crush David and his family, his friends, his neighbors, his colleagues, ...

Israel lost any miniscule justification it may have had for its existence long ago.  This latest conflagration just amplifies this reality that much more.

Just so noone misconstrues my last post,  I support the elimination of Israel as a political and demographic entity.  I do not condone the killing of anyone for any reason.

The Israelies know exactly what they are doing.

Yep, they sure do. They're striking back at Hamas. 80% of the fatalities have been Hamas. Hamas fired rockets into Israel, not innocent Palestinian citizens. Hamas uses Palestinian citizens as human shields.

They are terrorizing the population into giving up its support of Hamas

No. They are specifically targeting Hamas. Besides, are you really so out of your fricking mind to believe that the Palestinian people actually SUPPORT Hamas? You've got to be kidding me, Steven P.

It's like Goliath complaining that David shot his foot with a rock, then proceeds to crush David and his family, his friends, his neighbors, his colleagues, ...

Again, Israel is specifically targeting Hamas members and they've been quite successful. I suppose you'd rather have Hamas keep firing rockets into Israel and have Israel do nothing? Would that be better, STEVEN P.???

Israel lost any miniscule justification it may have had for its existence long ago.

Bull@!$%#. Israel is justified in defending itself, even if YOU don't like it, Steven. That's the hard damn truth, honey.

Just so noone misconstrues my last post,  I support the elimination of Israel as a political and demographic entity.  I do not condone the killing of anyone for any reason.

As a demographic entity, meaning what exactly?

Are there any other nations whose existence you propose similar elimination for, and why?

Yes, Steven P, can we have clarification?

By eliminating a demographic entity without killing, do you mean deporting or converting them, or performing sex change operations?

Will the new political entity get to keep Israel's weapons when they replace them?

Yep, they sure do. They're striking back at Hamas. 80% of the fatalities have been Hamas. Hamas fired rockets into Israel, not innocent Palestinian citizens. Hamas uses Palestinian citizens as human shields

Good God, MC.   Hamas is powerless compared to Israel.  They're shooting homemade pocket rockets.  It's like David shooting peas at Goliath's toes.  And what does Israel hide behind.  Tanks and precision weapons.  Why haven't they just gone in there and sweeped Gaza have done with it?  Here they are, armed to the friggin teeth with weapons and munitions and they are sniveling about Hamas?  As if Hamas were some big bad enemy to be feared and conquered?  What you are talking about?

No. They are specifically targeting Hamas. Besides, are you really so out of your fricking mind to believe that the Palestinian people actually SUPPORT Hamas? You've got to be kidding me, Steven P.

So now, you're saying the Palestinians are being held hostage to Hamas?  And Israel is gonna liberate them by shooting missles and dropping cluster bombs?  Where's the invasion of Gaza?  You're damn right the locals support Hamas, just like the Lebanese locals support Hezbolla.   The propaganda is in your brain, not mine.  You push a people beyond their limit and you expect them to lay down and take that @!$%#?  Israel is for Jewish people because their ancestors lived there once upon a time and they come struttin' back after 2000 years and the Palestinians just gotta make way for the anointed tribe?  Give me a friggin' break.

Again, Israel is specifically targeting Hamas members and they've been quite successful. I suppose you'd rather have Hamas keep firing rockets into Israel and have Israel do nothing? Would that be better, STEVEN P.???

Again, Palestinians are just too lay there and do nothing while Israel takes their land, their rights, their dignity.  Israel calls all the shots and the Palestinians get no say.  Just remember your own history when Britain had that uppity attitude.  You know how the early Americans responded, don't you: 'we ain't taking this @!$%# anymore'!!!

Bull@!$%#. Israel is justified in defending itself, even if YOU don't like it, Steven. That's the hard damn truth, honey.

Defend itself?  For crying outload, It's the friggin' other way around!!!!  It Israel that's got all the damn guns and ammo, not the Palestinians.  Pocket rockets against precision guided bombs and cluster bombs and tanks.  150,000 troops against 15,000 militants!  Yeah, Israel defend itself my @!

As a demographic entity, meaning what exactly?

Are there any other nations whose existence you propose similar elimination for, and why?

Yeah, Ill clarify that.  Israel is an artificial entity.  It is propped up by America's patronage.  A country that cannot defend it land of its own accord, in my book is not a country.  The deck has always been stacked in Israel's favor militarily.  If it hasn't the wherewithal to get along with its neighbors and pull itself up by its own bootstraps, then how can it be called a country.  

We have been sponsering Israel to the tune of $3 Billion annually for God know how long.  Yet we decry any attempt by Iran to support Hamas militarily.  And you dare question why Hamas would go to such lengths to defend itself?  You treat Palestinians like second- class citizens, deny them their own land, deny them dignity, and when they fight back, you call them terrorists?  

The Pals have nothing left and nothing left to lose.  Thanks to Israel and its 'benevolence'.    Hey, if only the Pals kow-toed to Israel, they wouldn't have any problems, right?  Accept the deal Israel puts on the table without conditions and all is fine and dandy, right?  Israel is making an offer the Pals can't refuse, right?

Wrong.  

You would never take a deal from a beligerent power.  The Vietnamese said no to us.  The Afghans said no to Russia.  Taiwan is saying no to China.  Palestine is saying no to Israel.

"You can chain my body, but not my mind.  So I think I'll break out again tonight"

Yes, Steven P, can we have clarification?

By eliminating a demographic entity without killing, do you mean deporting or converting them, or performing sex change operations?

Will the new political entity get to keep Israel's weapons when they replace them?

What I meant to say was that I see a country replacing Israel that is not called a Jewish state.  The 'demographics' of Israel is not Jewish people only.  There is a big percentage of people living there that are Arab/Muslim and that needs to be reflected in the constitution and government and institutions of Israel.

As well,  the vast majority of Jewish people living in Israel are not natural born.  They are all transplants from another country.  You may be facing this in your lifetime.  Just imagine a major 'boatlift' of immigrants from say Bolivia, and these folks just up and take over New Mexico, and then decide well its gonna be a spanish speaking, catholic theocracy.  And since they are in the majority, well too bad for the folks that live there.  They can take it or leave it.  

You haven't thought of that have you?  Well its not as outlandish a scenario as you would like to think.  When you can tell me that you could live with that in your backyard, and when you take spanish classes, and convert to Catholism, then I'll believe you.  

 Just remember your own history when Britain had that uppity attitude.  You know how the early Americans responded, don't you: 'we ain't taking this @!$%# anymore'!!!

So you're saying the Hamas charter is just like the Declaration of Independence? Are there previews of the Palestinian Constitution? Or do we have to wait until it comes out in theaters?

Cute Irene.

Face it.  The reality is if you steal land, it will be met with fierce opposition.  Deal with it.

That is the nature of the world we live in.  

I can't wait to see your comments when the Tibetans rise up against the Han.  What will you say then?  Those poor Han.  Look at those terrorist Tibetans attacking the Han in the marketplace!  Outrageous.

Good God, MC.   Hamas is powerless compared to Israel.  They're shooting homemade pocket rockets.

I guess Israel should just allow it to continue, then, Steven? That's cute.

Why haven't they just gone in there and sweeped Gaza have done with it?

Because that's not what they FRICKING want to do! They're not out to destroy Gaza or the Palestinians! If Israel really wanted to obliterate the Palestinians they have the weapons and the capability to do so extremely quickly. The point, which you so adequately pointed out, is that they AREN'T. Yet still Israel is the enemy to you. How odd.

So now, you're saying the Palestinians are being held hostage to Hamas?

Yeah, I pretty much believe that.

And Israel is gonna liberate them by shooting missles and dropping cluster bombs? 

No. Israel is targeting Hamas because Hamas keeps firing rockets at Israel. Do you need a diagram?

You push a people beyond their limit and you expect them to lay down and take that @!$%#?

Hamas pushes Israel by firing rockets at daycare centers, deeper and deeper into the interior. Do you expect Israel to just lay down and take it?

Israel is for Jewish people because their ancestors lived there once upon a time and they come struttin' back after 2000 years and the Palestinians just gotta make way for the anointed tribe?  Give me a friggin' break.

You seem to believe that EVERYONE in Israel is a European Jew. Give ME a break, Steven. A great number of Jews in Israel are natives to the Middle East, but I guess they're not welcome in your version of the Levant either. How charming.

Again, Palestinians are just too lay there and do nothing while Israel takes their land, their rights, their dignity.

Excuse me, Steven, but what land has Israel stolen? The last time I checked, it was BRITISH Palestine before it was Israel. Also, the last time I checked, Israel COMPLETELY PULLED OUT from Gaza. Did you miss that memo? Hamas steals the dignity of the Palestinians. They're a scourge and need to be crushed.

For the record, dearest Steven, the actions of American Revolutionaries are completely and utterly different than the actions of Hamas. Hamas is out to DESTROY Israel because it's filled with 'nasty dirty Jews.' I'd love for you to point out to me where, in the declarations of the Revolutionaries, it was the main goal to destroy England because it was filled with 'nasty dirty Anglicans.' I'll wait.

Its amusing to listen to Israel, armed to the teeth as it is, accuse Hamas of terrorism.  It's like Goliath complaining that David shot his foot with a rock, then proceeds to crush David and his family, his friends, his neighbors, his colleagues, ...

So by your reasoning, the US shouldn't have gone after Al Qaida after 9/11? After all, we outnumber the terrorists, have better firepower, are better financed, etc. When you have people lobbing bombs into your civilian neighborhoods, strapping explosives onto their chests and blowing themselves up in crowded Israeli marketplaces, etc., what would you call it, if not terrorism?

That's what Steven calls "self defense," fedupwithliberals. Strange, isn't it.

Israel is an artificial entity.

Name some countries that aren't artificial entities.

A country that cannot defend it land of its own accord, in my book is not a country.

Essentially, you're saying that "might makes right." If the weak cannot defend themselves, the strong have the right to seize what they will. hmm

The deck has always been stacked in Israel's favor militarily.

It's not as if neighbouring nations only have slingshots, you know.

It seems evident that there aren't any other nations whose existence you propose similar elimination for... isn't that odd - wonder why? /rolleyes

Why haven't they just gone in there and sweeped Gaza have done with it?

Because that's not what they FRICKING want to do! They're not out to destroy Gaza or the Palestinians! If Israel really wanted to obliterate the Palestinians they have the weapons and the capability to do so extremely quickly. The point, which you so adequately pointed out, is that they AREN'T. Yet still Israel is the enemy to you. How odd.

Israel knows that Hamas is mixing in with the locals.  The only way to root them out is thru a ground operation.  The rationale is that a ground operation will cost more civilian lives than precision hits.  Yet, these precision hits will never root them out.  So why persist so stubbornly to follow a failed policy?  To save lives? I simply don't believe it.  They are using W's shock and awe strategy to try and break Hamas resolve.  It won't work just like it didn't work in Iraq.  The smart strategy is to win over the people through direct engagement with the population.  They are not doing this.  Why not?

And Israel is gonna liberate them by shooting missles and dropping cluster bombs? 

No. Israel is targeting Hamas because Hamas keeps firing rockets at Israel. Do you need a diagram?

This strategy speaks volumes about Israel's unwillingness to or lack of understanding of militants guerilla tactics.  I think it is the former as Israel is well-known for special forces capabilities.  It is not that they don't understand but that they are stubborn in their approach.  They are so afraid of not being able to control the fallout of possible high numbers of military casualties that they continue to hide behind bombing strategies that are an utter failure in rooting our guerrillas.  

If Israel honestly wants to root out Hamas, they must face the true cost of peace.  And that is losing some of its own.  It has always been that way.  Why should we expect any other?  If that land is so precious to them, why are they not willing to put their own lives on the line for it?

Israel is for Jewish people because their ancestors lived there once upon a time and they come struttin' back after 2000 years and the Palestinians just gotta make way for the anointed tribe?  Give me a friggin' break.

You seem to believe that EVERYONE in Israel is a European Jew. Give ME a break, Steven. A great number of Jews in Israel are natives to the Middle East, but I guess they're not welcome in your version of the Levant either. How charming.

How in the world can you come this this conclusion from my comment.   Jewish immigrant have come from all corners of the globe, a large portion in recent years from Russia.  I think your comment shows your knee-jerk reactions to those that oppose Israel's tactics.  I oppose them not because Israel is a Jewish nation, I oppose them because they are hard-assed, uncomproming, arrogant, deaf negotiators, imposing their religious dreams on other that do not share them.  They were determined from the end of the 19th century, to take back the land of their ancestors for themselves and they have never taken no for an answer, no matter how many times, they have been told no.  

Their intrancigence in the face of opposition is at the root of the problem, not Muslim terrorism.  Hamas action, though deplorable, is still an extreme defensive action, not an offensive action.  How can it be in any way offensive in the face of a country that is chock full of military options.  How can you characterize Hamas the aggressor, and Israel as an innocent defender.  Israel hold all the cards!

Your position seems to be that since Hamas hides behind civilians and uses suicide bombings so all bets are off.  Hamas is the evil party.  They have crossed the line.  But these tactics have been used for millenium.  It doesn't make it right but that is reality.  How are you going to root out these ideas?  By killing all the people in the world that have these ideas swimming in their brain?  How many will you kill before these ideas die out?  Hint:  they will never go away.  That is what you don't get.  You want to cut leave, chop branches, and may think chopping the tree down will do the trick.  Well it wont.

Christ said to his apostles that if they go into a town and the people scoff at your words, just leave and shake the dust from your feet.  Meaning, don't push the envelope.  If people don't want you there, don't insist on staying.  Well, Israel was never welcome to create a Jewish state.  It took European powers to make Israel happen, not the blessings of its neighbor, which was crucial to it long-term health.  Israel has been too damn arrogant and insistant on its dreams to revive its homeland.  Why didn't the USA, or England or France carve out a nice little spot for them if it was such a big deal?  Who didn't know that ramming the creation of Israel down Arab throats would cause an immense backlash?

The naivete is surely not on my part.  I am fully grounded in the reality of what people think and do in reality as opposed to ideally.

Again, Palestinians are just too lay there and do nothing while Israel takes their land, their rights, their dignity.

Excuse me, Steven, but what land has Israel stolen? The last time I checked, it was BRITISH Palestine before it was Israel. Also, the last time I checked, Israel COMPLETELY PULLED OUT from Gaza. Did you miss that memo? Hamas steals the dignity of the Palestinians. They're a scourge and need to be crushed.

Excuse me MC, but the problem started way before that with Israel's success in getting Britain to write up the Balfour declaration.  The disarray in both World War's were Israel's opportunities to get in thru the backdoor.  Just because Britain got the authority to manage British Palestine as a spoil of war, is a separate issue from having the wisdom to make the right choice.  It was surely within their right to make the decision, but was is the wise thing to do.  It clearly was not.  But Britain had their eye on the advantages it would give Britain vis Israel as a base to manage its interests in the region.  Israel would be the perfect wedge to keep the Arabs in line.  To me that is the crux of the matter.  Britain sure was not feeling sorry for Jewish victimization in the Holocaust.   It may call me cynical, but I think I understand human motivations, and the Holocaust was a Godsend to British and American economic interests.  How nicely events of the 20th century dovetailed to promote these interests.

For the record, dearest Steven, the actions of American Revolutionaries are completely and utterly different than the actions of Hamas. Hamas is out to DESTROY Israel because it's filled with 'nasty dirty Jews.' I'd love for you to point out to me where, in the declarations of the Revolutionaries, it was the main goal to destroy England because it was filled with 'nasty dirty Anglicans.' I'll wait.

You've swallowed that propaganda HLaS.  Your emotions are getting the best of you. "Dirty little Jews"?  Sounds more like something coming outta the KKK then Hamas.  Come on.  The area was by far an Arab/Muslim majority before Zionists started systematically supporting the immigration of Jewish people to the holy land until such a time as they became the majority, thus enabling them to claim they had the right to govern the land.  That is what China is doing in Tibet!, for crying out loud!  Do you agree with China's Tibet policy?  Do you know what they are doing in Tibet?  Probably not.

So by your reasoning, the US shouldn't have gone after Al Qaida after 9/11? After all, we outnumber the terrorists, have better firepower, are better financed, etc. When you have people lobbing bombs into your civilian neighborhoods, strapping explosives onto their chests and blowing themselves up in crowded Israeli marketplaces, etc., what would you call it, if not terrorism?

FUWL,  you're damn right I didn't agree with hitting Al Quida in Iraq.  Smacking Afghanistan was right, then you create a pretext in Iraq, bait and switch, and voile, whaddaya got now?  Democracy and human rights my @rs!  Do you really believe anyone in their heart of hearts actually cares about the plight of Iraqies under Saadam or even now?  Puleeze.  Maybe you as a working class or middle class regular armchair philosopher.  But definetely not the folks doing the planning and execution of these strategic maneuvers.  

Hey, I'm not some bleeding heart type.  Whether I like it or not, or can stop it or not, one thing i know, I won't make the mistake of misjudging people's core motivations.  "A tree is known by the fruit it bears".

Israel is an artificial entity.

Name some countries that aren't artificial entities.

Alkimija, yeah technically all countries are artificial creations.  But if you insist on being pedantic???

A country that cannot defend it land of its own accord, in my book is not a country.

Essentially, you're saying that "might makes right." If the weak cannot defend themselves, the strong have the right to seize what they will. hmm

Has it ever been any different?  Stronger nations do not help weaker nations from the goodness of their heart.  It just doesn't happen.  'What's in it for us' is core policy.

It seems evident that there aren't any other nations whose existence you propose similar elimination for... isn't that odd - wonder why? /rolleyes

What I believe is don't prop up any other nation for self-interest.   If Bosnia can't hold on to its land by itself, it doens't have the wherewithall to be a country and should not be propped up.  If North Korea implodes after Kim Il-Jung leaves the scene and gets absorbed by South Korea, that's as it should be. China must not interfere to preserve North Korea.  If Ossetia can't shake itself from Georgia without Russian sponsership, it will stay in Georgia.  

That's what I mean by artificial.

By the way, I fully support Taiwanese' complete and full indendence from China without any American help.  

If they can swing it, kudos to them.  Hope it happens. We just may get to see it in these next few years.

yeah technically all countries are artificial creations.

So let's destroy all of 'em, then.

Has it ever been any different?

No, but if you do believe in might makes right, then that opens up the door to all sorts of exceptionally nasty potential scenarios on all sides.

Oh well.

#18.3

Israel lost any miniscule justification it may have had for its existence long ago.

I agree with this view - anyone even remember the judstification?

Here's a pretty good case for the "existence" of Israel....before you arrive at the genocide option.

What Really Happened in the Middle East.

I love that link, Ellie! It shows the complete truth, which no doubt many here still refuse to consider!

Kipster, what is the justification for the United States' existence?  Belgium?  Saudi Arabia?

Ellie, that was difficult to watch.  ~For so many reasons.  Conflicting emotions are roiling within.  

I agree that the fighting needs to end, thats the bottom line. However If hamas wants to keep on shooting rockets at Israel, then Israel needs to keep on hunting down hamas and doing what is necessary to ensure that the citizens of Israel are protected.  If out of security concerns Israel chooses to keep its borders with the Gaza strip closed then that is Israels choice to make, and not any other country or entitys right to take away from them.  Why has Egypt choosen to close their border with the Gaza?  And why importantly is the rest of the world ignoring or minimalizing that?  

Another point that I question is the "artificial entity" statements. That statement in and of itself holds no water. Sounds like an arguement hamass or one of the other militant arabic terrorist groups would make, not a statement any ratinal thinking folks would make.

I suspect that even if totally neutral UN military forces from whatever country were choosen and put on the ground in the Gaza, they would suffer from car bombs , the ever popular roadside IED, and from skirmishes in general with hamass and whichever country seems to keep supplying them with military hardware.  The only way to keep the weaponry out is to take and completely unload each and every vehicle entering the Gaza and inspect each and every crate, box, bag etc. Otherwise they will keep getting their weapons.  

  To sum it all up unless there is a safe, efficient way to clean up this mess without getting more people killed, then we need to leave Israel alone to handle this situation. It seems to me that they are doing a pretty good job with as few innocents as possible getting hurt.

It seems to me that they are doing a pretty good job with as few innocents as possible getting hurt.

Let's see how the body count is looking.

At least 814 Palestinians, roughly half of them civilians, have died since war broke out on Dec. 27, according to Palestinian medical officials. Thirteen Israelis, including 10 soldiers, have been killed. source

Some 400+ civilians on one side against some 3 on its own side! I beg to differ if that is a good job. Especially when you consider that almost 50% of the population in Gaza is aged either under 14 or over 65.

Ratt,

Even with modern weapons, those are good numbers for a suburban/urban fight. Remember that HAMAS likes to cuddle up next to civilians for just that reason.

I would be suspicious of statistics from any Palestinian or Israeli source, both sides are sure to use the "best" numbers they can make up.  I feel awful for the civilians, but given HAMAS behavior, I think Israel has a right to defend herself.

HAMAS has served the civilians in Gaza badly by ANY measure and this latest is just more of the same.  HAMAS wanted this fight and now they have it -- tough luck, don't pick fights with folks who can hurt you. The answer remains that HAMAS has to control their members and stop the rockets, until then the Israelis will use that as an excuse to continue the attack.

I would be suspicious of statistics from any Palestinian or Israeli source, both sides are sure to use the "best" numbers they can make up.  

True. Most independent media are using those figures, and some that I have relied on have high journalistic standards. You got a better source?

I feel awful for the civilians, but given HAMAS behavior, I think Israel has a right to defend herself.

No question about Israel's right for self defence. For the powerful (and that is what Israel is in the region), with that right comes responsibility. Israel needs to work harder at this aspect if it wants to win hearts and minds. It is beginning to lose hearts and minds of many neutral observers, and increasingly, its own diaspora. That is telling.

Raat, I apologize for mis-keying your name in my last post

True on both counts.

Independent media are using the figures because they don't have better data. Neither, of course do we. I was just cautioning that the original source of the figures (on both sides) have good reason to be less than entirely honest.

As the "strong" party to the fight, Israel DOES have the responsibility to be careful. I will bet money that being careful is a CONSTANT topic for junior officers in the field. I will also bet money that Israeli soldiers grieve over their mistakes and they have made some.

You are right that Israel is loosing the battle for hearts and minds. In the end, HAMAS may very well win this battle which will be bad for Israel, bad for us, and very bad for peace.

see the BTselem statistics

VMS, you actually would enjoy seeing them.

What are they?  

VMS

here is the link..

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

Casualty stats.  They're organized by location, age, place, ethnicity. 

Thank you.  And excuse my ignorance.

I would, if there were any to excuse, smart one. :)

When you say "regardless," what is it exactly that you're disregarding? Truth? Statistics? Propagandistic ploys?

Just wondering what it is we're supposed to disregard in order to be comfortable in our assumptions about the situation.

The people are still dead, Athena. You can't ignore that. There is never an excuse to kill another thinking human being without their consent. Never. You seem to think that these people's lives are valued at less than others, when they are clearly lives, just as yours.

If a rocket killed however many Israeli's were killed (The number 8 is popping out at me, not sure why) but it hit in Canada and flew over the American border. Would Canada be justified to start bombing densly populated urban centers in the US because the perpetrators might be there?

If Canada managed to hit a combatant 75% of the time, I suppose so.  (That's the rate at which Israel's been hitting combatants.  It's one of the best in modern history for avoiding civilian casualties.)

here is never an excuse to kill another thinking human being without their consent. Never.

And yet it's cool for Hamas to fire rockets into Israel and move ahead with their well-known plan to wipe Israel and its Jews from the pages of history...

Sir Thinksnotenough,

Israel is not randomly bombing civilian population centers. They are carefully selecting military targets. As has been noted above, the Palestinian authority claims that 100 of those killed since Dec. 27 are civilians.

Civilian casualties are awful, and Israel is obviously doing everything it can to minimize them. They're not carpet-bombing Gaza -- they're targeting Hamas militants who "bravely" hide among women and children.

I never said it's OK for Hamas to do what they do. I'm saying that there have to be better ways to handle it than dropping bombs in a densly populated area.

I'm saying that there have to be better ways to handle it than dropping bombs in a densly populated area.

Hamas militants hide there ON PURPOSE. What would you have Israel do? Send agents in to engage the militants in hand-to-hand combat? Well, that's kinda what they're doing now..........

Deliberate deception on whose part?  Not Mr. McCann's.

I wouldn't bet much on that assertion.

You're projecting your own assumptions onto the situation.  It was an honest mistake, one that the seeder apologized for - let it go! 

For god's sake, it's no wonder the Jews and the Arabs are into killing each other forever - people can't even let go of someone posting a photo in error.   Israel has left enough carnage in the Palestinian world over the decades, that quibbling over one little photo is ludicrous. 

I second the nomination. Certainly the research that went into discrediting propagandists is worthy of a RAV.

"Regardless of the video" -- you mean that it is presented as a case of Israel blowing up Palestinians, when it's really Palestinians blowing up themselves?

"it still describes the situation in Israel's corner of the world" -- you mean that Hamas shows scant regard for the safety and security of their own people?

"after 60 years of existence, Israel has still not learned how to get along with its neighbors" -- so Hamas blowing up their own marketplace, as the video clearly showed, is all Israel's fault?

"I know the Israelis are aggressively killing anything or anyone who gets in their way because you think Jewish life is the only valuable life" -- wow, I missed that nugget on CNN. Was it on the ticker at the bottom of the screen, or is that the title of Anderson Cooper's next special?

What I have seen -- on CNN and CNN International, as well as on MSNBC and Fox -- is that 400 of the 500 killed in Gaza so far are militants, and 100 of those 500 are civilians. Not quite the indiscriminate, random and indifferent violence that you "know" is happening.

Regardless of the video, it's detestible that it still describes the situation in Israel's corner of the world and shows that after 60 years of existence, Israel has still not learned how to get along with its neighbors and thinks killing people is the only route to take.

Excuse me? Did you not read this part?: "A pickup truck carrying masked militants blew up at a Hamas rally on Friday, killing at least 15 Palestinians and wounding 80, The PA Interior Ministry confirmed." Israel was not involved in this situation. This video shows that Hamas militants don't even know how to get along with fellow Palestinians, let alone Israel!

Good grief.

I for one don't get my news from Newsvine, I get it from the cable news channels and I know the Israelis are aggressively killing anything or anyone who gets in their way because you think Jewish life is the only valuable life. 

Please don't make sweeping generalizations against a specific religion. That sort of thing is generally frowned upon, in case you didn't know.

It's obvious to me that you are one of those people that is unable to separate the Jewish religion from the State of Israel. What a very myopic point of view you have. ::smirk:: I would suggest that, before you post further, you should revise your statements so that they include less hate. Thank you.

And for the record, Israel is targeting Hamas militants and most of the deaths you see on the news channels are those of Hamas.

I would suggest you get your head out of that warm moist place you keep it in and start looking at things objectively.   I am well aware of what Israel is about it.  Having a different perspective on the situation does not make me less than you are in anyway.  It's obvious to me that you are the myopic one and can't stand the thought of anyone holding a diverse point-of-view.  Remarks like yours are exactly why this US government continues to blindly support Israeli aggression - criticizing Israeli policy opens one to accusations of antisemitism.   Sounds like you are the one who can't differentiate between the Jewish religion and the state of Israel.   Namaste.

Sounds like you are the one who can't differentiate between the Jewish religion and the state of Israel.

Please don't sling ridiculous accusations my way just because you can't hit the delete button and take back what you said.

You're the one that thought the video was an example of Israeli treatment of Palestinians. Who has their head up a dark hole, again? ::whisper:: You!

I am well aware of what Israel is about it.

I beg to differ.

Mags If you cant accept someone or some country defending themselves from what is basically a terrorist group whose soul purpose in life is to see Israel wiped out as a country, then I feel sorry for your myopic views.  Go research what hamas and their goals are, its certainly not to provide for and enrich the lives and living conditions of those folks living in the Gaza. If it were, all the money spent on rockets and other weaponry would have been spent on such silly things as ohh.....better water supplies, a functional electrical infrastructure, and on schools and even hospitals . 

I think you suggested removing ones head from a bodily orifice and viewing things objectively. Perhaps it might behoove you to do that yourself.