Stop This Vicious Slaughter! England Must Stop Waging War On The Nazis!

Funny. I thought it was quite possibly the worst analogy I've ever read on NV. The reason "terrorist appeaser" liberals aren't showing up to argue against this drivel is the fact that it collapses under the weight of its own silliness before one has a chance to dismantle it with logic.

Comparing a bunch of poorly armed desperados with crappy missiles to the Third Reich is so far beyond ridiculous that it actually insults things that are merely ridiculous.

Why not compare Hamas to Stalin's Russia or the Aztec Empire or H.G. Wells' Martians?

I fail to see how the analogy applies, they were two industrially developed nations at war, in a time when the entire world was at war. Today we have Israel - a technologically advanced nation with an organized military supplied with the latest weapons and Gaza, a largely civilian population crammed into a ghetto smaller than Manhattan without an organized military or any modern weapons.

So how does the analogy work?

I think it's an excellent analogy. The salient points are in pretty good alignment.

 It's funny how perfection is demanded of analogies that  illustrate a point of view with which we disagree. Human nature, I suppose.

Though Hamas does not have the industrial capabilities as Germany, they have the same intent.

Not anywhere close to true. Nazi Germany sought to build a European empire and dominate the industrial market. Hamas seeks to be allowed to return home.

Islamic radicalism and Naziism have some pretty fundamental links going back to the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem before WWII.

Waynester:

And significant links afterwards as well. Otto Skorzeny scored serious arms for the Arab states attacking Israel after the war such as Egypt. In fact, that's partly how he made his living. That and arranging for training for armies wanting to kill Jews. Nazism has survived in radical Islamism with the same strain intact: kill all the Jews by any means possible.

I am speaking in terms of their shared desire to destroy the Jewish people.

Hamas seeks to destroy Israel--not the Jewish people. People like to frame it as a religious conflict because, then, it's easy to pick sides. It's not. It's about: An area of land was taken from one group of people, given to another, and now the first group is fighting to get it back, while the second group is fighting to keep their nation alive. It's not because the Israelis are Jewish, and the Israelis are not the whole of the Jewish people.

Just to be clear: Hamas are pretty bad guys, and I sincerely hope their organization collapses. But these wildly speculative comparisons do more to support them than to harm them.

<blockquote>It's funny how perfection is demanded of analogies that  illustrate a point of view with which we disagree. Human nature, I suppose.<blockquote>

yeah funny how peopel want analogies to atleast reflect reality.

lets see the geman machine was one of the strongest on the planet.. making england the under dog.. analogy  failed.

lets seee england wasnt occupiing german lands.. analogy failed.

germans killed thousands of british.. analogy failed.

england had the worlds support.. analogy failed.

whats simular about it? death and war?

and are all responces justified?

 I mean if some random iranian shot dead an american.. would it justify nuking the country of millions?

lets take it further.. lets say a visiting iranian, jaywalked in new york.. woudl it justify nuking a country of millions?

hell no it would not.

if you accept that , then there is such thing as proportional response.

It doesnt mean you have to keep count of your dead and make sure their numbers are equal.

It means you dotn take out a city and kill a bunch of civilians when the rockets have hardly killed anyone. It's ben years, whats the death toll up to? 11.

No I'm not saying israel should have done nothing.

But the point is they are nuking a city for a single murder.

the punishment isnt justified by the crime.

no matter how terrorising the rockets are.

AND PS we went to the UN and formed coalitions and international support for both our wars.. and on 9/11 they killed more americans in one day than palistinians have killed israelis since 1968 and we still formed coalitions.

Just to be clear: Hamas are pretty bad guys, and I sincerely hope their organization collapses. But these wildly speculative comparisons do more to support them than to harm them.

I'm glad to see you say that. There are others on NV who apparently would rather take an ass-whipping than say anything negative about Hamas.

It strains credulity to think that an analogy such as this could somehow strengthen Hamas.

Hamas seeks to destroy Israel--not the Jewish people

Israel is the homeland for the Jewish people; to destroy it and to drive them in to the sea would produce a broken people, in my view (full disclosue: I'm not Jewish). Just what some want, but it isn't what most of us want, fortunately.

Waynester:

I also think it is important to point out that this is like that old saying about the Nazis about first they came for X but I wasn't X so I said nothing and at the end there's no one left to say anything when they haul him off to the concentration camp. Islamists gun for Israel first and foremost. If they finish off Israel, the "Crusaders" are next: i.e. the West, particularly America. People should probably look at it through the self-preservation lens before they say "Those terrible Israelis killing all those underdog Palestinians! We should stop selling them weapons and let teenagers stone Israel to death!"

Yaakov,

That's a really crummy translation. Someone has translated "Jews," when it means Israelis. Here's a hint for you: if Muslim is spelled "Moslem," you're reading something translated by someone with an agenda. Moslem is a misspelling that is generally used only by bigots.

Waynester,

Analogies like this help people like Hamas because it puts way more weight on the subject than it deserve. Hamas are, basically, a small group of thugs in a tiny corner of the world. The constantly rising level of rhetoric regarding them is why people are willing to blow themselves up for those guys. It's an arms-race of ideas, and the bigger you blow-up the conflict to be, the bigger you make the other guy.

Israel is the homeland for the Jewish people; to destroy it and to drive them in to the sea would produce a broken people, in my view

Israel has only existed for a few decades. The majority of the world's Jewish do not live in Israel. The Jewish people have been, and continue to be, a healthy population all over the world. Israel is a political entity--not a religious one. It is a government--not a faith. The faith was around for a long time before the country, and I imagine it'll be just fine long after Israel disappears from the map (in the sense that all nations eventually change hands... not advocating it or anything).

Zom Zom - Hamas seeks to destroy Israel--not the Jewish people.

So its just an anti-enviromental, enemy of the earth kind of thing then...?

They want to kill the trees, bomb the rocks, destroy the water supply, and poison the air so that Israel as a country ceases to exist

...and killing Jews is just regrettable collateral damage?

Thanks for adding clarity

So its just an anti-enviromental, enemy of the earth kind of thing then...?

I think you're confused. A country is a political entity. It is not made up of rocks and trees, but rather by citizens, laws and loyaties. The land that it occupies is not the nation, itself. For instance, California is part of the USA, but used to be part of Mexico. It was not necessary to destroy all of the rocks and trees in California to make it part of the USA.

...and killing Jews is just regrettable collateral damage?

And, no: I didn't say killing the population was ok. What I said was that it is the nation, not the people, that they are trying to destroy. If, for instance, all of the people of Israel suddenly moved to the US and said "Here Hamas, you can have the land back," it would probably end the fight. What I said was that it is a nation, not a religion or ethnicity, that these people are fighting.

Zom Zom - A country is a political entity. It is not made up of rocks and trees, but rather by citizens, laws and loyaties

So they want to destroy the citizens, laws, and loyalties...  got it!

Aren't the vast majority of the citizens they want to destroy Jews?

Does this mean Jews aren't people?

Zom Zom - If, for instance, all of the people of Israel suddenly moved to the US and said "Here Hamas, you can have the land back," it would probably end the fight.

Probably?

Then you suggest the desire is destroy the people themselves, even if they are half-way around the world in the USA

Does that mean that when Jews are in the USA they are still considered "Israel" and must be destroyed?

You're trying to twist my words but... well... you're pretty bad at it.

No. The things that you are claiming aren't logical extensions of what I'm claiming.

Aren't the vast majority of the citizens they want to destroy Jews?

This doesn't mean that they are trying to kill "Jews." It's not about race or religion. When we went to war with Germany in World War 2, it wasn't because we were trying to kill "White People," even though the majority of the Germans were white. Nor were we warring against "Christains" even though the majority of Germans believed themselves to be Christain.

Does that mean that when Jews are in the USA they are still considered "Israel" and must be destroyed?

I said "probably" as a qualifier because I can't speak the mind of every single whack job on the planet (if I could, you wouldn't be so absurd).

And, because you can form complete sentences, you're probably smart enough to know that your comments are completely divested from what I'm saying. Care to try to show, in a semi-logical factions, how your claims are supposed to follow from mine?

So far your arguments have been more along the lines of...

You said:

Then you suggest the desire is destroy the people themselves, even if they are half-way around the world in the USA

Are you therefore claiming that, if I'm wrong, the Earth must be flat? You think that the Earth is flat, so I guess you probably think that the sun revolves around it then, right? Since we'd all fall off, otherwise.

So, are you saying that the sun revolves around the flat Earth?

Yaakov,

So that’s a big difference too. (and perhas a reason the current Czech government supports the state of Israel.) But imagine, liberals serving as the defenders of the continuing rule of a Nazi-like party more extreme than Hitler’s! (Talk about “shtetl police”)

Imagine!  Good link.

Well, first, the quote is from the Hadith, not the Quran. Your translation is poor enough that I'll keep looking for a halfway decent one. About the spelling "moslem," here is a little background for you:

"Moslem" became associated with "Black Moslems" or Nation of Islam adherents in the 1950s-1960s. "Black Moslem" became a term used by the right for militant blacks or just proud African Americans. With the rise of fundementalist terrorism, "Moslem" is used by some (mostly on the extreme right - Sean Hannity, I would guess) as a code word for "terrosist". Most prefer the term "Islamofascist". Like "partial birth abortion" and "one man and one women", it is a phrase meant to elicit a predictable response from like-minded individuals. Like "dilation and extraction", Muslim doesn't elicit the same response.

"According to the Center for Nonproliferation Studies, "Moslem and Muslim are basically two different spellings for the same word." But the seemingly arbitrary choice of spellings is a sensitive subject for many followers of Islam. Whereas for most English speakers, the two words are synonymous in meaning, the Arabic roots of the two words are very different. A Muslim in Arabic means "one who gives himself to God," and is by definition, someone who adheres to Islam. By contrast, a Moslem in Arabic means "one who is evil and unjust" when the word is pronounced, as it is in English, Mozlem with a z."

It's true: Most dictionaries will simply say "synonymous with Muslim," in the same way that "@!$%#" or "kyke" might have been defined, fifty years ago as "black person" or "jewish person." That's how we define it. It is still a term used primarily by racists.

Zom Zom - You're trying to twist my words but... well... you're pretty bad at it.

Actually, you have them pretty twisted all by yourself. I simply began untwisting them to reveal some of the knotty problems in the fabric of your contentions

When we went to war with Germany in World War 2, it wasn't because we were trying to kill "White People," even though the majority of the Germans were white. Nor were we warring against "Christains" even though the majority of Germans believed themselves to be Christain.

There were Nazis too... remember them? We were trying to kill Nazis.... not the "country", but the Nazis

Most people now accept the fact that Nazis were actual people, so the object was to kill as many Nazis as possible. Not to kill the "country" but to destroy the people who made that country the influence it was in the world

The same is true with with Israel as it exists today. It is not the "country" Hamas wants to destroy, but the people who comprise what Israel is as an influence in the world

Care to try to show, in a semi-logical factions, how your claims are supposed to follow from mine?

They don't "follow" from yours, since yours in this case are based on a faulty premise. They are presented to counter your misstatements and offer clarification to those who might otherwise accept a false analogy without discerning the subtle violations of the required logical argument to support it

Are you therefore claiming that, if I'm wrong, the Earth must be flat? You think that the Earth is flat, so I guess you probably think that the sun revolves around it then, right? Since we'd all fall off, otherwise.

See?

Another irrational and unsupportable analogy

This is why your claims and comments are now compromised, due to a repeated demonstration of an overeagerness to "win" by distorting and altering measurable known data in an attempt to buttress your argumants

There were Nazis too... remember them? We were trying to kill Nazis.... not the "country", but the Nazis

Perfectly good point. So, why is it that you keep insisting that the enemy of the Palestinians are "Jews" rather than "Israelis?" It's the governing body that they are fighting (that body being specifically the nationalist Israelis, who happen to be Jewish, just as you point out that we were fighting the Nazis, Germany's governing body, rather than white people and Christains).

The same is true with with Israel as it exists today. It is not the "country" Hamas wants to destroy, but the people who comprise what Israel is as an influence in the world

Yes. Who are their government and their leaders. Not "Jews."

Another irrational and unsupportable analogy

Actually, I was using that to point out that your "extrapolations" bear no relevance to the things that I have said.

This is why your claims and comments are now compromised, due to a repeated demonstration of an overeagerness to "win" by distorting and altering measurable known data in an attempt to buttress your argumants

You're confused. I'm not trying to "win" anything. I'm trying to clarify distinctions in what is a political war--not a religious/ethnic one. Extremists on both sides keep trying to make it about "Muslim versus Jewish" or "Arab versus Israeli," when, in fact, it is about "Occupied territory versus Occupier."

Zom Zom - why is it that you keep insisting that the enemy of the Palestinians are "Jews" rather than "Israelis?

In the comments to which I responded you specified Hamas, not the Palestinians, as the entity wanting to destroy Israel

In the comments to which I responded you specified Hamas, not the Palestinians, as the entity wanting to destroy Israel

And I'm not disagreeing with you (nor trying to argue that Hamas are good guys--they aren't. They are thugs with guns and mortars). I'm saying that it is Israelis and Israel they are fighting--not the Jewish people/faith.

To be fair, I think I should clarify something I said earlier. Two posts ago, I said that the fight isn't "Arab versus Israeli." This is one of those reasons that this is a hard distinction to make. In that one, I meant "Israeli" as in "ethnic Jew," rather than as "citizen of Israel," plenty of whom aren't ethnically Jewish.

Funny is never worthless. Too much tragedy in the world for that to be true.

It's called humor, Yaakov. Yeah yeah... wikipedia says this or that. The fact remains that people constantly make idiotic, unfitting analogies to how someone is "like the Nazis!" to try to win some argument by making what is supposed to be an emotional appeal. My point was that it just ends up sounding, to everyone who doesn't already agree with them, like another person whose arguments have spiralled into whining and name calling.

Perhaps I should have called it Reductio ad Hitlerum. "Hitler did X. These guys did X. These guys are like Hitler!" My point is that, once you resort to "This side is like Hitler/Nazis," your argument has become absurd.

Your sources are refreshing.

Yes. Everyone on the internet with a grudge makes the comparisson "What the other guys are doing is just like Hitler/the Nazis!"

It's a form of internet debate that is one step up from "My daddy could beat up your daddy!"

heres an analogy for ya.

I guess according to yall had the jews fougth back agaisnt their opressors the nazis in the concentration camps, the nazis were justified in exterminating them.

Not exactly fair I know.. many disimularities.. like the palistinians arent exactly in concentration camps and the jews havent gased anyone, but it's just as apt as the analogy here. It is just as close to reality. So i guess it fits.

The point of similarity is this, and I'll bold it so everyone realizes that:

No one criticized us when we razed Dresden to the ground and the whole world is criticizing Israel for trying to make targeted strikes against a group bent on killing them. The civilians ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE GOVERNMENT THAT THEY ELECT. If that government brings you misery, it's your fault for electing them. IN DEMOCRACY, PEOPLE GET THE GOVERNMENT THEY DESERVE AND HAMAS AND THE NAZIS WERE BOTH LEGITIMATELY ELECTED.

i'm typing in caps and bold therefore i win the argument.

Actually the holocausts of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Dresden, in terms of civilians should be historically acknowledged, based on Post W.WII standards, War crimes

Ah, the ex post facto argument. Let's all apply the sensibilities of today to the realities of the past. What pap.

i'm typing in caps and bold therefore i win the argument.

Damn! I got nothin'.

[throws up hands in defeat]

Zom Zom:

For once, I have to give Eric Albert credit. I'm normally critical of his arguments but he actually responded to me in a rational debate style which you did not. Sarcasm's funny but funny does not win debates... solid points do.

Eric:

I've been around you long enough now that I think I understand you... at least partially. You have an ideal for human behavior in which everyone is treated fairly and no one gets hurt or killed. Unfortunately, humans are just smart animals and animals kill each other. As long as there are humans and political entities composed of humans, somebody is going to be killing somebody else. Regrettable, but all empirical evidence points to this fact, none moreso than Darwin's theory of evolution. If it shall be me or the other guy that dies, I will make sure it's the other guy.

Isaac:

I wasn't trying to make a point. I was just making fun of you for typing in a manner that is obnoxious to read.

If I wanted to make a point, it would be: The Palestinians elected Hamas (a resistence group) while being an occupied population, under constant military pressure, in an area where the government has no sovereignty. There is no nation that Hamas is controlling. It is the governing body of an occupied people who have no self-determination. Hamas was elected because of the military and economic pressures forced on them by an occupying force.

The Nazi party was elected in a... whatcha call it... nation. What they did was a matter of self-determination. It was a driving force--not a reactionary one.

Zom Zom - Everyone on the internet with a grudge makes the comparisson "What the other guys are doing is just like Hitler/the Nazis!"

Don't flatter yourself...

...you aren't that good    ; )

I don't understand your comment. I'm not as good as a Nazi?

We were comparing Israel and the Palestinians to the British and the Nazis. The comparisons had nothing to do with me, personally.

But it was a nice attempt to draw me into making personall attacks (or reacting to yours).

Dennis:

That's actually an excellent point. Germans were encouraged to breed more for the Fatherland and Hamas just feeds their people into what is the equivalent of a military shredder.