The CNN strategy

Eric, FOR PITY'S SAKE GO AND READ HRW'S FACT SHEET ON ISRAEL/HAMAS. Hamas' rockets aren't diversionary, they are at the heart of Hamas' intent and they arewar crimes, UNLESS of course HRW is ALL WRONG and You, JUST YOU, are the Solitary Bearer Of Truth Crying IN ALL CAPS In Teh Wilderness.

(reposted to correct thread) - with NEW and IMPROVED capitaliztion, fortified with extra snark ;)

3 votes

#1.6 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:58 PM EST

Xanthiana

This article is incredibly one sided and I am tempted to argue propaganda in its purest form. The things I take issue with in this article are as follows:

1.) The author laments the fact that the only pictures displayed in the media come from Hamas, yet he neglects to mention the restrictions Israel imposed on the media. As far as I know no reporters are allowed in the region despite an Israeli Supreme Court ruling to allow the entry of journalists. Simple answer: Allow reporters from reputable news organisation to enter the Gaza Strip and report.

2.) The author lumps all Muslims and Arabs together and argues that all the crimes commited by these should be tallied against the crimes committed by Israel. Why would you count the suicide bombs in Iraq, India, or any other nation of your choosing in with the current events in the Gaza Strip? The only connection I see is religion or ethnicity of the perpetrators. This would then be akin to arguing that the crimes of organisations like the KKK, which is using many Christian principles, are directly attributed to any Christian church in the USA. It doesn't make sense.

3.) No mention is made that Israel has killed many more people than "the deadly Hamas rockets" have in several years. It allows fails to mention the policies, that every person with a social conscience has to reject, which are used to suppress 1.5 million people.

So in conclusion: Hamas is wrong, Israel is wrong and two wrongs won't make a right. Violence breeds violence and you will not be able to fight ideology by use of bombs and artillery.

11 votes

#2 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:01 AM EST

Israel is allowing foreign and domestic journalists into Gaza (1, 2, 3).
I think that you are misrepresenting the article. Dershowitz says that an inordinate amount of attention is being paid to Muslims killed in other parts of the world ("The world simply doesn't seem to care when Arabs and Muslims kill large numbers of other Arabs and Muslims, but a qualitatively different standard applies when the Jewish state kills even a relatively small number of Muslims and Arabs in a war of self-defence."). This seems to make alot of sense to me.
Why should there be any mention of the number of people killed? Since only 20-30 Israelis have been killed by Hamas, Israel is only allowed to inflict the same number of casualties back on Hamas? If Hamas shields themselves with civilians, Israel is therefore forced to accept any violence sent there way? Hamas started this war, and they are getting back exactly what they had coming to them.

you will not be able to fight ideology by use of bombs and artillery

True. But if that ideology leads its followers to attempt to kill you, and you in turn kill them, then you have acted legitimately in protecting your own existence.

6 votes

#2.1 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:19 AM EST

Xanthiana

1. The only Western reporter mentioned in your example was Herbert Hoover, who entered Gaza well after this war started. One of your sources even mentions the following:

In a conflict where the Western news media have been largely prevented from reporting from Gaza because of restrictions imposed by the Israeli military, Al Jazeera has had a distinct advantage. It was already there.

So no Israel is not allowing reporters in. They may make an exception or two, but it is not the norm and this leads us back to the fact that the reporting done from inside Gaza will most likely be done by Arab TV stations and thus it is likely that it is biased.

2. The difference I see in these events is the simple fact that suicide bombings, terrorist attacks and the likes are generally not state sponsored. Last I checked you had the capital punishment verdicts and executions from Iran in the news as something done by a government. The others seem to be in a different category or are you seriously arguing that a suicide bombing by a radical is comparable to a nations government flying F-16s and dropping 2000 pound bombs?

3. Because it seems to me that the right to defend yourself here is completely blown out of proportion by the Western Media. While every single loss at the Israeli side of the rockets is a tragic loss I see those rockets more as a form of terrorism than a grave threat to many lives. In terms of these views the number of deaths is relevant when listing the number of rockets. I also never claimed Israel had no right to defend its citizens, but I think they went overboard. Looking at recent conflicts, do you remember the outrage about Russia invading Georgia? Russia cited similar reasons as did Israel, yet we (the West) collectively condemned the Russian response as unproportional. So you can't argue it is fair in Israel while it was not in Georgia.

True. But if that ideology leads its followers to attempt to kill you, and you in turn kill them, then you have acted legitimately in protecting your own existence.

You could also argue it the other way around. There have been many more Palestinians injured, maimed and killed previously to the last major attack. There was a tight blockade put around the Gaza Strip, effectively keeping food, medication, and all necessities outside. If you look at the aide trucks that passed into Gaza before the blockade you will see a substantial decrease. So one could argue that a people starved by its neighbors have the right to fight back.

Nonetheless, the situation as it is right now is a disgrace to Israel as well Palestine. We need to find a way to solve these issues at hand despite the mistakes made in the past and I simply don't see how this war will solve anything. If anything it will harden the resolution of the people trapped in the Gaza Strip against Israel.

3 votes

#2.2 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:03 AM EST

Eric, for pity's sake go read HRW's fact sheet on Israel/Hamas. Hamas' rockets aren't diversionary, unless of course HRW is all wrong and you are the solitary bearer of truth crying IN ALL CAPS into the wilderness.

3 votes

#2.3 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:18 PM EST

woops, the previous should have been attached to comment #1.

1 vote

#2.4 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:52 PM EST

I wrote this elsewhere:

At my most cynical I am beginning to believe that Hamas now prefers "ineffectual" rockets to suicide bombers. Reason? A blasted to smithereens Egged bus arouses the world's sympathy - likewise do the bodies of innocent Palestinians. Indifferent to the humanity of either, Hamas has cruelly decided that the corpses of Gaza's Palestinians better suit its aims.

And this:

The interesting thing is that this is the outcome of Israel's effective blocking of suicide bombers, for the most part. Hamas made lemonade out of lemons.

3 votes

#3 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:13 AM EST

Waynester

The interesting thing is that this is the outcome of Israel's effective blocking of suicide bombers, for the most part. Hamas made lemonade out of lemons.

Yes, and the bonus is lefties all over the world calling a rational defense against suicide bombers (the fence/wall)"apartheid".

4 votes

#3.1 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:29 AM EST

MHammer

Once again, wee see that the Islamofascists have learned their lessons from the debacle of Viet Nam, aka "Hanoi" Jane Fonda. Show the Americans and the World how bad our military is, how they beat up on the poor innocent, under armed peole. Show the death and destruction, do not show the causal of these deaths, as in the Hams hiding behind the civilians they are supposedly protecting. Yeah the CNN effect. Love, Learn to love it, use it, beat the hell out of America and the Western Powers.

3 votes

#4 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:16 AM EST

garth-811605Deleted

Brian-497171

Israel is not going anywhere. That is a fact.

The only way to arrive at some sort of resolution is to have a Palestinian government that is not a terrorist organization and can appeal to the global community with reason, and more importantly a plan towards peace that does not involve hurling rockets and human grenades.

A multi-nation coalition could exert pressure on Israel to tear down illegal settlements and to recognize defined and fair borders of a true Palestinian state.

Otherwise, it will just be Groundhog's Day on end.

4 votes

#10 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:17 AM EST

garth-811605Deleted

Yaakov

Greetings and thanks for this link. Yes, the CNN strategy is a good name for it, but regrettably the Israeli government seems to be falling for it.

But what strategies do the Palestinians have to force Israeli government negotiate in a timely manor in times of relative calm? Would the Gandhi strategy be useful when CNN forgets the Mideast?

1 vote

#12 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:03 PM EST

But what strategies do the Palestinians have to force Israeli government negotiate

If their goal is to destroy Israel, then they have no strategy that would cause Israel to negotiate with them

If their goal is to have a country next to Israel, then all they have to do is acknowledge Israel's existence, stop firing rockets into Israel, and start educating their children about life rather than death.

2 votes

#12.1 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:13 PM EST

Yaakov

I know you to be a reasonable Israeli. I would ask you too raise your view beyond the current disaster.

... then all they have to do is acknowledge Israel's existence, stop firing rockets into Israel, and start educating their children about life rather than death.

I couldn't agree more in principle to this part of your statement. But given the questions of the right of return and the settlements, I don't know that the two state solution is still possible.

Back to my question: But what strategies do the Palestinians have to force Israeli government negotiate? I don't think you can just ask them to live peacefully in prison forever while the Israeli government stalls at the negotiating table.

1 vote

#12.2 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:47 PM EST

But what strategies do the Palestinians have to force Israeli government negotiate? I don't think you can just ask them to live peacefully in prison forever while the Israeli government stalls at the negotiating table.

I am not asking them to do that. I wrote in my comment above exactly what they need to do. If they do so, within 12 months they will have a country, billions of dollars of aid pouring in to create their economy, and peace.

If you don't think that the two state solution is still possible, then what do you want Israel to negotiate away? The pattern of negotiations from day one has been for Israel to offer land for peace. If that is out of the question, what is their left to negotiate? If the Arabs want something that Israel cannot or will not give, what is there to talk about?

1 vote

#12.3 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:19 PM EST

I am not asking them to do that. I wrote in my comment above exactly what they need to do. If they do so, within 12 months they will have a country, billions of dollars of aid pouring in to create their economy, and peace.

You need to recognize that this requires 100.0000% compliance by Palestinians and holds them hostage to the actions a few would be terrorists. And I ask, aren't there Israeli extremists that would also engage in the politics of terror?

History takes away options from the negotiation table and brings new ones. The US will have new leadership soon. I hope you Israelis do well in the up and coming election. I'd sure like to see you help the rest of us to understand how that is coming along.

1 vote

#12.4 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:20 PM EST

PalmettoArmadillo

There is nothing to negotiate except a cease fire. It would last as long as the last one did, perhaps shorter. Depending on how quickly Hamas could rebuild its arsenal. That is the only reason Hamas would seek a cease fire is to give them time to regroup.

The only way to wage a successful war is to beat your enemy to the point that he no longer has the desire to fight you, forever. Anything less is a waste of time and lives.

Screw what the world thinks, destroy your enemy and be done with it once and for all.

If you are going to have a war, at least do it right.

1 vote

#12.5 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:44 PM EST

You need to recognize that this requires 100.0000% compliance by Palestinians and holds them hostage to the actions a few would be terrorists

Currently all of the terrorism directed towards Israel is state sponsored (Hamas, PLO, Syria, Iran). If the government representing the Palestinians honestly wanted peace, and there was a splinter terrorist group that acted against this, then the government would have to show their sincerity by arresting those responsible and punishing them appropriately (either hand them over to Israel, or give them the same punishment that is currently accorded to those accused as collaborators).

The act of acknowledging Israel and backing it up with firm and resolute action (and not telling one thing to the press and another to the Arab world) of course requires 100% compliance. How could it be any other way?

3 votes

#12.6 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:49 PM EST