The Mother of All Quagmires

sigh. I join those who would love to see a peaceful two-state solution; however, I believe Totten brings up some good points about why that will be near impossible in the short term. Good comments here. Thanks for pointing me this way, Krishna.

The article presents a pragmatic viewpoint of this conflict, and also of the dilemma that is presented in it. It is a puzzle, indeed.

Many Americans have a strong tendency to feel that every problem has a solution. IMO this one does NOT-- at least for the time being.

Peace (?)(!). I guess that the LULLS between artillery barrages and bayonet charges "over the top", WW I, could also have been called a Peace.

This CONFLICT between Israelis and Palestinians will still be a war even if there are greater time separations of actual fighting or violence.

If the Israelis destroy the Palestinians, the STAIN on the souls of the Israelis will NOT be lifted off or wiped away. More could be said on this, but, for the moment, let this statement stand by itself.

Therefore, REAL peace will Only Happen for the Israelis AND the Palestinians ON that day that they BOTH agree to Peace.

The division of the land, whatever it might be, will be AGREED TO, by the MAJORITY of both sides, SINCERELY; AND the Israelis and the Palestinians, will EACH handle in as rough a fashion as necessary their (hopefully small) minorities that do NOT agree.

FOR SURE, the sides are NOT even close to that at this time. BUT, have FAITH, there will be a time, and THAT TIME WILL COME. ONLY for us to keep the DESIRE for a REAL agreement alive.

In the very, VERY NEAR future, unless Iran changes its current course there WILL of necessity be an Israeli attack on the Iranian nukes that Iran is currently "NOT" building. That attack will actually be sanctioned by the West and Russia and India.

The Sunni countries will NOT sanction the attack on the Iranian Shias nuke sites, BUT they will "look the Other way" as the attack unfolds.

Lebanon MUST control Hizb'Allah and prevent this Iranian ally from attacking Israel, because Lebanon KNOWS that Israel MUST DESTROY an attacker even if they are on Lebanese soil.

The Palestinians of the West Bank will remain and watch.

The Palestinians of Gaza, ruled by their Hamas leadership are an unknown in the equation of the Israeli attack on Irans nukes.

a *Big Need*) for Palestinian Leadership".

IMO< the problem is..the type of leadership the Palestinians seem to choose...

The Palestinians have limited choice when it comes to picking leaders, though. That is also a problem. A big problem. Look at how much infighting has gone on amongst themselves over the last several decades. I wonder how many Palestinians would actually be willing to accept change, if they did not have to worry about the consequences of their thoughts.

Actually a biiger problem may be the consequences of their actions!

I am thinking that, a Palestinian Leader of His (or Her) People,

Should be as Equal In Experience, as His (or Her) Israeli Counterparts,

in Order THAT a True Understanding of MUTUALITY is FELT by BOTH.

I Believe that a Truer, *Truer*, Agreement of Understanding AND Necessity of Acceptance, by EACH

MAY BE REACHED, with a more ASSURED Chance of Success,

THAT, The Negotiators, for The Palestinian People AND The Israeli People,

ARE EQUAL in EXPERIENCE;

and A MAJOR Experience that Israeli Jews HAVE, over MOST ALL (But, Not ALL) Palestinians,

IS, That,

Israeli Jewish Leaders, SEE and TALK and INTERACT with Israeli Muslims (Israeli-Palestinian)
on a DAILY Basis. That Daily "proximity", that Closeness, to talk to and "understand" the Other,

ALL Palestinian Leaders, at THIS TIME, This Current Time,....

....ALL Palestinian Leaders, currently (and totally) LACK!!

A True and Strong Palestinian Leader, A TRUE and Successful Leader,

MUST be Western Educated, and MUST KNOW and Speak with Jews, Daily,

Just as, The Israeli Leadership, Jews and Muslim, Speak, Each of Them, to Jews and Muslims,

DAILY!!

The Current Palestinian Leadership.....

The PEACE between Palestine (to BE) and Israel, {and Jordan},

MUST BE With a Western Educated Palestinian Leader(s),

You make a good point. If the Palestinians could accept such a leader? Meaning someone who has lived extensively outside of their territory and thus would hopefully have a more rounded outlook after living away from the everyday mood that must pervade Gaza.

Krishna...I should have stated that as 'having to worry about the consequences of expressing their thoughts'.

I still believe one only needs to read, : the covenant of Hamas." to begin to understand.

Well, one can find out about it right here on NV-- plus a good accompanying discussion as well:

The Hamas Charter (The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement)

We hear about the Hamas Charter quite often... but we only see an occasional extract from it. I though it might be useful to post the whole document: The Hamas Charter

It is a tough read, but worth it! I understand that florid language is part of Arab culture... but still! There are bits that are hard to believe, like Article 19, line 4:

All this is utterly serious and no jest, for those who are fighters do not jest.

Here are a few extracts that I found significant:

(Read it all)

That is not such a good example. Kurds are also in Iran, Iraq, and Syria. Iraq and Iran is where their main ancestral line comes from.

why aren't the Kurds attacking the US?

But the modern day Ottomans are attacking them-- and in a quite nasty manner:

Turkey Accused of Using Chemical Weapons against PKK
German experts have confirmed the authenticity of photographs that purport to show PKK fighters killed by chemical weapons. The evidence puts increasing pressure on the Turkish government, which has long been suspected of using such weapons against Kurdish rebels. It would be difficult to exceed the horror shown in the photos, which feature burned, maimed and scorched body parts. The victims are scarcely even recognizable as human beings.

I understand....and as I hope I made clear...don't suggest it.

I just find it interesting that the Kurds who are fighting for a separate state don't seem to get much support from the same nations that support the Palestinians, and that, unlike the Palestinians they haven't attacked US interests for the last 50 years. Does this suggest a difference in focus...and financing?

Perhaps only those that attack U.S. interests get the attention of the U.S. Squeaky wheel gets the grease...who is going to figure that out and squeak the loudest?

Might want to check out the Kurdish History.

A while back I came across an article about them-- a really amazing article about an amazing people, quite a history-- a "must read"!

Who Are the Kurds?

Krishna, you always amaze, Thank you, read a bit of it, put it up as a favorite and shall make it a complete read in the morning. Your right a must read.

Kurdistan is the proper name for their nation. They should have been given one a long time ago. But life isn't necessarily fair.

well THEN....?!

Are The Kurds SO SHY....?!

The Kurds DO WANT Their *Kurdistan*, do they not??!!

Let THEM have THEIR U.N. VOTE,
The Same DAY.

There is NO Hypocrisy in the U.N.,

....IS There....?!

Let there BE Kurds, ALSO, asking for their State!

I Believe in a Palestine(to BE)
AND
I Believe in a Kurdistan(to BE)

I DO BELIEVE, however, That,
a *Negotiated* Settlement,
Is FAR SUPERIOR, longevity-wise, and health-wise,
as Opposed To, a Unilateral Declaration;

but,
IF we are to HAVE "Unilateral",
then,

The Kurds, as well as The Palestinians,
The Turks, as well as The Israelis,
....

The Treaty of Sevres (1920) was supposed to create an independent Kurdistan, but of course it never actually happened

The Treaty of Sevres (1920) was supposed to create an independent Kurdistan, but of course it never actually happened

And no-- you don't have to know that

(Not to worry-- it won't be on the Final! :-)

Two of my grandchildren